I am not only petrified to read another page of this book, but I am in utter shock due to the ending of this story. When Mark Fossie and the crew found the crazed Mary Anne, she looked back at their confused faces and said, "There is no sense talking. I know what you think but it's not... it's not bad." Tim O'Brien uses the echo to underline her ill-condition as she is stuttering and struggling to speak normally. She denies the importance of speaking about her condition which makes me wonder about the effects of war. It already has taken its toll on the men who were drafted and here we have a young, pretty woman absolutely obliterated by the war. She is crazy, simply put and knows that she is because she says to the men "I know what you're thinking..."This foreshadows the men's eventual mental downfall, which will force me to look more intensely for signs of PTSD in the soldiers present for this event.
Rene, I really appreciate your passion in this post. Your emotion runs through clearly, and that is a great skill in analytical writing. While I agree that Mary Anne's ultimate self-discovery is quite extreme compared to her original self at the beginning of the story, her new self defies the structures that she functioned directly within at the start, which I think is what O'Brien is trying to point towards. For example, when she first takes off with the Green Berets, shortly afterwards she and Fossie get engaged (99), Fossie fearful of her growing independence. At the very end of the story, Eddie Diamond discusses Mary Anne's knack for night patrols; "All camouflaged up, her face smooth and vacant, she seemed to flow like water through the dark, like oil, without sound or center. She went barefoot. She stopped carrying a weapon" (109). Marry Anne gains a certain power from the war. She allows this power to consume her, and to further her abilities for stealth and emotional detachment. She feels so powerful, in fact, that she doesn't even use a weapon. She relies on herself, and herself only, a symbol of liberation from male domination. Interestingly enough, however, by embracing masculine values of emotional detachment, she counteracts a supposedly feminist force that ultimately allows her to find herself.
Rene, I agree with your analysis especially in regards to PTSD. I think that Tim O'Brien is trying to criticize the affects of war on soldiers. Mary Anne starts the short story as an extremely innocent young girl, but ultimately develops into the ultimate killing machine. I think that O'Brien wants to illustrate the fact that war takes tolls on people differently and that some people seem to be naturally wired to survive and to fight in a war like setting while others do not share these characteristics. I find it interesting that as Mary Anne turns more and more into a guerrilla fighter she becomes more and more like her enemy, the Viet Cong, and decides to shed her shoes and enters the jungle barefoot.
Rene, interesting reply, but I disagree with the language that was used. Josef, you used similar language and I think that calling her "crazy" and emphasizing her looks and youth, dehumanizes her and further exhibits the way in which society has not really progressed. Throughout the story, the men continuously found themselves “uncomfortable” with a woman being in a typically man’s job and highlighted the sexism that existed back then, and still unfortunately exists today. This story, and your responses, essentially expose how society treats women who try to compete with men in "a man's domain" as incapable and “crazy” for trying to accomplish the same thing. I think that while you guys both had strong points in the denial of mental illness after the war, by acting as though the “young, pretty woman” in the story cannot handle being “absolutely obliterated by the war” in the same way as a man, it only further pushes the idea of women as too delicate to accomplish the same things as men.
Rene and Josef, I think you both interpreted the text from an interesting perspective. That being said, I simply disagree with your points about the transformation Mary Anne underwent as a result of exposure to the war. Rene, by using the words, "crazy," "young," and "pretty," you paint Mary Anne as more susceptible to the war than the male soldiers, and hint that her transformation was from an innocent girl to a mentally unstable woman. In my opinion, Mary Anne's transformation is one from that of a giggly, flirtatious girl into an empowered, brave woman determined to find herself and not rely on the men around her. Josef, by using the words "ultimate killing machine" to describe the girl, you are stating that Mary-Anne's newfound womanhood and independence makes her mentally unstable and dangerous when, in fact, she is no more of a "killing machine" than any of the soldiers. Although you two make valid points about PTSD, I think a re-evaluation of the lens through which you are looking at this story may be necessary.
Rene and Clara, I definitely agree that O'Brien is illustrating PTSD with Mary Anne's drastic change of identity but also he is trying to portray that inevitably war negatively impacts anyone. He is arguing humans are naturally savages with killer instincts which war perpetuate. When Rat says, “All that crap about how if we had a pussy for president there wouldn't be no more war.pure garbage” (107). This quote is used to criticize the underestimation of women and that they are not as gentle and innocent as they seem to be. O'Brien argues that anyone has the potential to be corrupted by war or that people already are capable of it deep down but the war reveals that hidden dark truth in oneself. He addresses this through the “hunger” Mary has in Vietnam in the jungle and it is the only place she can be “her true self”.
In "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong," I was particularly captivated by Mary Anne's transformation from the archetype of a pure, chastised girl to her ultimate stage of a self-discovered woman. When she first arrived at her boyfriend, Mark Fossie's campsite in Vietnam, she embodied the stereotype of a perfect girlfriend, giving "off a kind of come-and-get-me energy, coy and flirtatious...it was the sort of show that a girl will sometimes put on for her boyfriend's entertainment and education" (91). Even in the simple telling of this story, Rat makes it seem as if Mary Anne's every action is in the interest of men, trapping her with the perception that her duty is to serve the man who, with their relationship, she is bound to, bringing to mind colonial concepts of "benevolent" domination. The men find it cute that she takes interest in the war and Vietnam, seeing it as a hobby at most, something to occupy her time with. Throughout the story, however, Mary Anne grows more distant from Fossie as she becomes more involved with the war: "They held hands and made plans for after the war. But now there was a certain imprecision in the way Mary Anne expressed her thoughts on certain subjects...'Naturally we'll get married,' she'd tell him, 'Maybe travel first. Maybe live together. Just to test it out, you know?" (94). The war exposes Mary Anne to a new set of elements, challenging her previous, sheltered view of the world and shaping her vision for the future and how she sees herself. Nearing the end of the story, she leaves one night with the "Greenies," finding peace with herself and the autonomy she achieves in devoting herself to the fight, yet simultaneously abandoning Fossie, who relied on her submission and dependency on him.
Very good job, Clara! I really like how you focused on the character development of Mary Anne rather than just one moment that highlighted a bigger component of what she meant to "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong". What strengthened your argument about her change the most is the two pieces of evidence; this was a good touch. I agree completely with everything you say. The way she is introduced to the story makes her seem almost angelic in a way; she literally flies into the soldiers' lives and the description of her beauty lets the reader know everyone is immediately drawn to her. You also did a good job using feminist analysis (like Ms. Fink) when you wrote about how the more she learned about the war and the deeper she got into it, the more independent she became. O'Brien deliberately added this story to promote the idea of women power.
Clara, I really like your point about Fossie having relied upon Mary Anne’s submissive nature as a form of affirmation of his male dominance. Mary Anne is incredibly unique in the way that she overturns the classic narrative of women waiting at home for their glorious husbands and boyfriends to return from the war. She not only demonstrates the authority women can exert over men, but also conveys how war can in a sense, weaponize people. As Rat says, Mary Anne was “‘up to her eyeballs in [war]’’ and her complete submersion into the barbaric nature of war dehumanized her (114); the release from societal expectations freed Mary Anne to embrace the unrestrained, animalistic nature deep within her--the id. Despite the power of her character, there is also something oddly degrading about the way O’Brien uses this woman as a means of depicting the savagery, recklessness, and all-consuming nature of war. In the story, Mary Anne is forced into two class female archetypes: the angel in the house, and the vixen. This unbalanced portrayal of women also serves to depict the skewed perception of reality in war; a moderate Mary Anne may not have fit into a war story.
I really like your post, Clara. I think the feminist approach and almost the slight making fun of how silly men can be is really interesting. Especially in a war environment, the men start to become lost within the moral standards they hold and are detached from reality, but of course it is a woman that brings them back to who they are. Not only do they slightly drool over her, but at least it brings them a little bit back to reality and give them a normal sense of humanity. Obviously, it's not good that they all sexualize her, but it does highlight the fact that they do miss their lives home and love, and their desire for women. But I do really like the little add of feminism into this novel because it just goes to show that women did have some power during this time period, even if it obviously wasn't sufficient yet, they could still drive men crazy and provide extra motivation.
In “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” I found it interesting how the author, Tim O’Brien, introduces “Mary Anne Bell [as] an attractive girl” (95). She finds herself amongst soldiers that haven't been around women in a while and they are quick to examine her physical appearance. The narrator observes how Mary Anne was “too wide in the shoulders, maybe, but she had terrific legs” and notes that the guys appreciated it when she wore “a black swimsuit top” around them (95). Ironically, she seems to be the only person that's progressing amongst relatively stagnant characters; everyone else is already used to life in the war and doesn't question their surroundings. Additionally, because they're confined in an environment where asking questions is frowned upon, Mary Anne provides a refreshing new feeling by wanting to learn more. Furthermore, I wasn't expecting Mary Anne to become so involved in the war, even more so than her male counterparts. According to Rat, the war consumed her by providing adrenaline kicks that, like drugs, had her hooked and empowered her in a way that she hadn't experienced before.
I love you're analysis of how Mary Anne is depicted versus her "progression" compared to all the other characters. However, I would argue whether you would define her character in the story as "progressing" in the first place. While I understand it is easy to see Mary Anne as the anti-thesis to the whole stereotypical masculine movement (and the idea that war is for men), and to see her as sort of defying the norms of how men see women, I just do not think it is accurate for this particular story. In fact, I feel as though Mary Anne has not "progressed" as much as the other characters at all, because she cannot move past the war. She is stuck in the war, and all the horror of it, and at the end of story she never seems to get out. In fact, this story can be taken as an insult towards women, and the idea that they cannot stomach and handle the idea of war. That they cannot get past it.
The short story "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" details the experience of Rat Kiley at a medical outpost a top a mountain in Vietnam. The short story revolves around Mary Anne Bell, Mark Fossie's girlfriend coming to the outpost. The story consists of Rat's observations of Mary Anne as Vietnam changes her. "She had long white legs and blue eyes and a complexion like strawberry ice cream," (89) Rat's initial observations of Mary Anne stand in stark contrast to his final experiences with her: "There was no emotion in her stare, no sense of the person behind it... At the girl's throat was a necklace of human tongues," (105). The drastic change that Mary Anne undergoes in the brief period that she spends at the outpost is representative of how war can affect a person. In choosing to use Mary Anne to highlight this affect, Tim O'Brien shows not only that war influences everyone in different and sometimes unexpected ways, but also that men are clearly no more capable of engaging in combat than women are. Rat's way of describing the outcome Mary Anne's experience does seem to express concern, which strongly suggests that the war's affect on her was particularly tragic.
Wow Josef, I found your view on this story very interesting. I too was tracking Mary Anne’s role in this chapter and found her character to be fascinating. Despite looking at the same character as you I came to a different understanding of the chapter. I found it very interesting that you saw the evolution of Mary Anne as an example of how war changes people. I agree with your assertion that O’Brien included her to show how women were capable of doing any job a man can do. However I thought that Mary Anne’s character exposed the soldiers desperation to hold onto any piece of America they could while they were fighting in Vietnam. Rather than show how war changes people I believe she symbolizes the struggle of women in America, as can be seen through the way the soldiers look at her, and her place on a warzone being questioned by the men.
In “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong,” I was particularly interested by the motif of eating. When Mary Anne tells Fossie that he does not belong in the war, she explains, “‘Sometimes I want to eat this place. Vietnam. I want to swallow the whole country--the dirt, the death--I just want to eat it and have it there inside me...It’s like...this appetite” (111). Not only is Mary Anne’s appetite for war a reflection of the animal hidden inside her initially composed and conformist character, but her appetite also serves as a foil the to men’s failure to live up to the stereotype of bold, blood-hungry soldiers. Rather than seeking comfort in the liberty of war--the lack of order and societal confines that war provides--Fossie and the other men find comfort in the idea of home, which they perceive in tangence with the idea of marriage and having a sweetheart awaiting their return. In reality, they hunger for love and security; they do not know how to embrace the barbaric nature of war because their minds are elsewhere. The hunger for war stories comes out of an appetite for the control and sentiment lost in the chaos of war.
To add on to your point, it is ironic that Mary Anne develops this craving and determination for war since from the beginning she was meant to symbolize home. When at first playing around with the idea of bringing her over to Vietnam, one soldier argues that they are deserving of the opportunity, that they "pay our fuckin' dues" (88). For Mark Fossie, Mary Anne is the literal embodiment of home--before she has her transformation. We start to see the importance of this connection as the Mary becomes more and more involved with the war and we see the transition from hearing about her love story to hearing about the increasing tension between her and Fossie as he begins essentially loosing her. In addition, Fossie's relationship starts to crack as he attempts to distance Mary Anne from the war and transform her back only succeeded to increase the tension. Mary Anne no longer serves her initial purpose in providing comfort and familiarity as she becomes alienated to her boyfriend and the rest of the soldiers.
I found the response to Mary Anne’s “transformation” to be the most interesting part of the reading because it revealed the way that women were viewed at the time. When Mary Anne arrived she was perceived as feminine and fragile, but as a result of living in a war zone, she loses this sense of femininity. I think that O’Brien is critiquing the standard at the time that women could not do what men could do. When Mary Anne finds “a new confidence in her voice, a new authority in the way she carried herself,” (94) the men respond with discomfort in her displaying typically masculine traits. However, they do not stop to realize that she is the happiest she has been in her whole life. Additionally, after Fossie had a “talk” with Mary Anne, she wore a “white blouse, a navy blue skirt, and a pair of plain black flats” (98). Because it seems baffling to Fossie that a woman could do the same job as him, and maybe even do it better, he has to make Mary Anne act more feminine so he can continue to feel superior in his role as the man.
I completely agree, Emma and I liked the way you described how he needed her to be more feminine. I think Mary Anne challenged their perception of what it meant to be a woman at the time, in a way that was threatening to them. Specifically, Fossie was scared of being overshadowed by his girlfriend, which is why they ended up fighting. At first, I was going to slightly disagree because of how Rat described her at the end. When he said that he was in love with her and that he felt like she was one of the only girls that could understand the war, I thought that his perception contrasted Fossies. However, on second thought, he only likes her because she could understand his problems, regarding the war. He liked that she could relate to him in a way that many of his family and friends back home wouldn’t be able to; he didn’t like her for who she was.
In "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong," I found particularly interesting Mark Fossie's downfall at the hands of his girlfriend's, Mary Anne Bell, self discovery and independence. At the start of the story, Tim O'Brien characterizes Mary Anne Bell, the girl that Mark Fossie brought to Vietnam for his own pleasure, as "giving off a kind of come-and-get-me energy," and "coy and flirtatious" (95). In this same section of he story, O'Brien characterizes the relationship as healthy, and Mary and Mark as deeply in love. However, it is when Mary Anne starts to make the country of Vietnam her own that the relationship starts to waver. Later in the story, after becoming acclimated to the war, Mary states, "Sometimes I want to eat this place. Vietnam...That's how I feel. I feel close to myself. When I'm out there at night...it's like I'm full of electricity and I'm glowing in the dark" (111). Using the word "electricity" to describe Mary's emotions about Vietnam, O'Brien makes a direct contrast between her original entertainment --the soldiers-- with her newfound devotion: the country of Vietnam. Right after the scene in which Mary is quoted saying this, the relationship between Mary and Mark completely unravels, mainly because he cannot fathom the idea of being with a woman who is independent, a woman who relies on anything but himself for amusement.
Very nice job Julia! I think you analyzed the text very well and I completely see eye to eye with your point. It was very interesting to see the downfall of Mary Anne giving up full self up to Mark Fossie because in the beginning it seemed as though she wanted to get to know, connect and relate with him more. However, as the story went on and as her time with him extended, she began to grow as an independent character. Which I believe forced her to become a character with more concern for the world around her, and this gave her strength to experience and question the life events that Mark Fossie gets to experience, hands on. Something I found interesting which was related to your point was when Rat explained their relationship by stating, “If Mary Anne happened to move a few steps away from him, even briefly, he’d tighten up and force himself not to watch her” (99). Which clearly shows that he couldn’t cope with the fact that she didn’t want to be with him all the time, and for a man, this is all they want, especially through such a hard period in their life time, where they have to put all of their own desires aside and have fully embodied becoming a soldier. The fact that O’Brien includes, “even briefly” puts into clear perspective just how offended he is by the slightest action of a woman becoming an independent, and this signals to Mark Fossie that she doesn’t need any support from the male figure and as a whole, she doesn't have to depend on him.
In “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” Tim O’Brien considers the actions, feelings and emotions of Mary Anne, a female character, who is also Mark Fossie’s girlfriend. I find it very interesting that O’Brien decides to mention what occurs when Mary Anne visits her boyfriend during the war. While she is there, instead of spending quality time with her loved one, she is fascinated by the circumstances and conditions that he lives under. To add, Tim O’Brien clearly outlines Mary Anne’s passions, and while doing so, he poses the idea of a woman embodying a male affiliated role. For example, O’Brien writes, “Mary Anne wasn’t afraid to get her hands bloody... Not the gore so much but the adrenaline buzz that went with the job, that quick hot rush in your veins when the choppers settled down and you had to do things fast and right” (93). This portion of the reading, not only shows how strong and brave Mary Anne wants to be, but it addresses the larger message of a woman embodying and having the right to stand in masculine shoes, by thinking quick and for the willingness to work around events that occur during the war. By including that Mary Anne was not afraid of getting her “hands bloody,” she immediately is thought of as a non stereotypical woman since most woman would not be as willing to work close to war and be so fast to think on their feet during crucial moments in somebodies lifetime. Furthermore, this is the first direct perspective of a woman that readers have been exposed to and throughout this reading it is seen that woman who have loved ones in the war, only want to be closer to their over ones. Which touches on the idea that while men are at war, woman also build strength and courage for braving the war, because of how strong the love is. In relation to “How to Tell a True War Story” Mary Anne’s desire and compassion for Mark Fossie and his role in society portray the massage that “It wasn’t a war story. It was a love story” (81), because through it all, she always wanted to stay by his side.
One thing I found very interesting was O’Brien’s (based on the way Kiley’s story was recited) natural tendency to claim that females were blind to the horrors of war, ultimately declaring them unfit for the job. While reciting Kiley’s story, O’Brien narrates, “She seemed comfortable and entirely at home; the hostile atmosphere did not seem to register” (96). Since, Mary Anne is doing so well, O’Brien and Kiley, must make it seem like she is ignorant to the war because she is a female. I found this particularly interesting because one main reason Kiley retells this story, was to prove that women were not weak, and they will be just as crazy and lost as men if they were in Vietnam as well. However, despite this, you still get this sense of “masculinity” and the idea that only men understand war, while in reality, no one does. In fact, I think she is used to represent all that the men feel has happened to themselves, however, they use her to express these thoughts because it is easier to deem her “weak” and “ignorant to the war” because she is a women.
I think one of the most interesting parts of this chapter is the role of women in the war. From what we have read the only women we have heard about is Martha who has been reduced to a romanticized fantasy of Lieutenant Kinney’s. Tim O’Brien including the character of Mary Anne to challenge the perception of women as fragile and weak. Mary Anne betrays this stereotype as the chapter progresses, “All camouflaged up, her face smooth and vacant, she seemed to flow like water through the dark, like oil, without sound or center. She went barefoot. She stopped carrying a weapon" (109). Mary Anne’s ability to prove that women can do any job a man can do is discomforting to the soldiers as it challenges their belief that they are superior. Ultimately O’Brien inclusion of a female character in the foreign land of Vietnam is meant to show how soldiers who were off fighting in wars clung to American societal views to make them feel more at home and comfortable
Harry, I completely agree with your argument that soldiers stood by women's standards in American to make them more at ease. This is seen through Fossie, who goes from being incredibly proud of his girlfriend and letting her act as she want, to wanting complete control over her. When Mary Anne flirts with the other soldiers it does not bother him as “it was the sort of show that a girl will sometimes put on for her boyfriend’s entertainment” (91). As long as Mary Anne succeeds in providing for his “entertainment”, Fossie is happy. Yet when she begins to learn things for herself at the base, eventually doing even more than he does and attends an ambush, he lashes out and makes her act a certain way, in order to assert his manhood and perpetuate the societal norms of the U.S.
Harry, I completely agree with your argument that soldiers stood by women's standards in American to make them more at ease. This is seen through Fossie, who goes from being incredibly proud of his girlfriend and letting her act as she want, to wanting complete control over her. When Mary Anne flirts with the other soldiers it does not bother him as “it was the sort of show that a girl will sometimes put on for her boyfriend’s entertainment” (91). As long as Mary Anne succeeds in providing for his “entertainment”, Fossie is happy. Yet when she begins to learn things for herself at the base, eventually doing even more than he does and attends an ambush, he lashes out and makes her act a certain way, in order to assert his manhood and perpetuate the societal norms of the U.S.
When Mary Anne arrived to visit her boyfriend, she was described as a young, immature, fun, seventeen year old girl. However, by the end of the chapter she has completely transformed into an emotionless killer. Rat justifies this transformation as it “was what happened to all of them. You come over clean and you get dirty and then afterward it’s never the same” (109). Mary Anne slowly assimilated to the ways of life in Vietnam on an American base, physically changing her style, learning to handle weapons, the language, and other sorts of skills. Although being in that environment could have been what made her “dirty”, it is also due to Fossie’s controlling her. After Mary Anne begins changing, his reaction is what changes her completely; now turning to isolation: “her blue eyes opaque, she seemed to disappear inside herself” (100). It is uncertain how Mary Anne would have turned out if Fossie had not become so oppressive, but it definitely played a part in making her “ready for the kill” (110);
I love your analysis, Lilith. It really made me think deeper about Mary Anne’s transformation. Initially, I thought that the war was the only thing that had caused Mary Anne to change. The color transition of her eyes from blue to green symbolized how immersed she was in the war. However, it’s interesting to think about how controlling Mark Fossie was, and how that could’ve been a reason for her transformation as well. All throughout the story, Mary Anne seemed to have been moving further and further away from Fossie until she stopped visiting him completely, and that was when she had reached her full transformation. Maybe she’d found her true self when she’d been handling those weapons and learning other new skills, which, stereotypically during that time, wasn’t a feminine aspect. Fossie could’ve been the only thing stopping her from being who she really was, and by moving away from him, she was able to reveal her true self, no matter how scary or “dangerous” she seemed to people.
Lilith, this is a very strong point, in fact I had not even about it until you addressed it. The relationship Mary Anne has with Mark seems fairly normal. After reading your post, maybe the relationship between the two was never really authentic. I think it is clear that Mark was controlling her in some kind of way which is why she changes so quickly once she gets the chance to. This was probably something that was always hidden inside her, and it just so happens that she changes her lifestyle in Vietnam. There had to be something attractive about Vietnam for Mary Anne to change her life based on Vietnamese culture, because she had spent all the time away from Mark in the states. In addition, I believe Mark was always afraid of Mary Anne becoming “dirty” which is why he kept her so close and also why he was so disgusted with her when she came back.
In “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” I was interested by how O'brien introduced “Mary Anne Bell [as] an attractive girl” (101). I thought it was interesting since she found herself within a lot of men that have not been around women and become almost savage like due to her appearance. In the book, she was described as “too wide in the shoulders, maybe, but she had terrific legs” (94), this over-description of her shows how women are sexualized among men at war. O'brien continues to describe how the men enjoyed her wearing a black swimsuit top to make it even more sexual. Furthermore, because they're in an environment where asking questions is frowned upon, Mary Anne provides a refreshing new feeling by wanting to learn more. I wasn't expecting Mary Anne to become so involved in the war, even more so than her male counterparts. She really cared a lot about it, which seems surprising because war is stereotypically seen as always being dominated by men.
In “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong", what I found particularly interesting--and terrifying at the very least--was the transformation of Mary Anne throughout the story. Her transformation from “an attractive girl” with “terrific legs”, “a bubbly personality” and “a happy smile” (90) to “dangerous” and “ready for the kill” reveals how much of a toll war can have on people (110). Not only does war physically destroy people’s lives, but it also destroys them mentally as well, even if they haven’t been physically harmed. Even though the men had been there for much longer than Mary Anne, she seemed to be the one who was affected the most because of the war. Though at first glance, it might seem that Mary Anne had transformed negatively as a result of being surrounded by the war, there’s a possibility that it’s actually more positive, and we’re only seeing it in a negative way because of the dark, gloomy tone of the story. Being surrounded by the war could’ve very well transformed her into an empowered woman rather than the stereotypical young girl that she was initially perceived as. Because of the fact that how she was behaving was against the female stereotypes during that time, her transformation is perceived as rather scary and depressing. Overall, war leaves a permanent scar on people’s lives forever, just as it did for Mary Anne.
Great job Mahyea! I’m very interesting in the fact that you viewed her transformation as something positive. After reading tonight reading the thought of her transformation as something negative but after reading your analysis I agree that there is a possibility that it is actually more positive than negative. After her transformation she says, “Sometimes I want to eat this place. The whole country--the dirt, the death-- I just want to swallow it and have it there inside me. That’s how I feel. It’s like this appetite. You know? I feel close to myself. When I’m out there at night, I feel close to my own body.” (106) She talks about “This appetite” which make seem like she's been having this appetite for freedom to be able to feel close to herself, to her own body. She has finally walked away from the female stereotype leaving her satisfied.
What amazed me when reading “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” was how Mark Fossie was basically the exact opposite of Jimmy Cross. As you can remember, Cross was the one who kept pictures of Martha a girl he wished he could have a relationship with. Mark Fossie on the other hand had a girlfriend. The relationship was clearly strong as Mary, Mark’s girlfriend was described as: "coy and flirtatious" (95). Jimmy Cross was clearly missing out on this with Martha. The relationship between the two was one sided and seemingly incomparable to Mark and Mary’s. However it is the strong relationship that destroys the characters. Mark’s downfall is caused by not letting go of Mary in a time where he had to. He was to attached to one image of her, the happy one that was there just when he needed her. When she becomes truly somewhat of a Vietnam junkie, Mark is appalled, as he cannot grasp the idea of her having to do with anything Vietnam. Jimmy understands that his relationship with the photos of Martha is unhealthy which leads to burning the photos, thus releasing himself from her grasp. As far as I know Jimmy is fine, but clearly Mark is not.
Incredible Nick! I completely agree with your connection between Lieutenant Cross and Mark Fossie. I think that both are very emotionally troubled and wanted to connect with an image that reminds them of home. In this case Mark actually brings his girlfriend over, as an attempt to not lose his sense of emotion at war. I think that his desire to hold onto his life back at home is what makes his downfall easier when Mary chooses to stay in Vietnam. I agree that Jimmy’s way to try and keep a hold of his emotions is through the burning of the photos, and in this case Mark tried to send Mary back home. I agree that it is this strong relationship that makes it harder for Mark to separate himself from Mary, causing him to not let her go back home in time. I think that it was the result of not taking into account that war can change people. As Rat says, “I mean, when we first got here-- all of us-- we were real young and innocent, full of romantic bullshit, but we learned pretty damn quick. And so did Mary Anne” (97). This goes alongside your point on how Mark desire to be next to Mary and his decision to hold on to her, is what eventually causes her to experience war and change as a result of it.
In “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” I found Mary Anne’s role in war to be the most interesting. The soldiers at the base immediately find that “she was good for morale” (95). The immediate impression many of the soldiers have with Mary Anne’s presence, revolved around the idea that war is no place for a women. She is seen as innocent and fragile, and in no circumstance to be exposed to the horrors of war. Although Mary Anne’s transformation challenges these ideas: “She took a greedy pleasure in night patrols. She was good at it; she had the moves” (110). Despite Mary Anne’s transformation proving the notion that females can be in war, many of the male figures reject this possibility and consider it to be “impossible.” By challenging these gender norms, she leaves other soldiers to question their authority. The inability to accept this idea is reflected by branding Rats story as untrue by other soldiers as a way to justify their machismo.
Clarence, I personally agree with the notion that Mary Anne's role in the war represents the idea that females can up rise men or can even be as equitable as men in a patriarchy. However, is it also fair to say that rather than battling with the male and female power, the author was simply trying to show how war can effect human nature? By stating that “She took a greedy pleasure in night patrols. She was good at it; she had the moves” (110), can also mean that war can immediately alter human nature, thus attaching an individual (surprisingly also women) to the war/bloodshed mindset. Because although this definitely reflects the parallel between gender roles, in the book, it was stated that: "I mean, when we first got here—all of us—we were real young and innocent, full of romantic bullshit, but we learned pretty damn quick. And so did Mary Anne"(61). Therefore when he says they learned quick, that can just be a reference to how any individual is able to adapt to the war mindset, thereby having one's human nature altered.
Clarence, I really like and appreciate how you acknowledge what is being said about both female gender norms and male gender norms. Mary Anne definitely defies the men’s expectations through her transformation. On the other hand, the men, as you say, show a sense of determination to reject the possibility of this in order to maintain their manliness. I think that another significant demonstration of this necessity to maintain authority or credibility is seen through Rat’s overwhelming desire to almost prove himself and receive validation from the men listening to his story. In a moment like this, Rat says, “I know it sounds far-out…but it’s not like impossible or anything. We all heard plenty of wackier stories…well, its not like that…I saw it” (101-102). Rat cannot accept that one might not completely believe what he speaks of. If he wants to be viewed as a man who is respectable and honorable, he cannot have people questioning the validity of his story. He feels such a desire to prove himself that he frequently interrupts his story to make comments such as the one above and it even begins to annoy the men. Perhaps being able to tell a true war story is significant in order for one to be viewed as a manly man.
Since “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” mentions the human nature and how it is altered, free will exists and is ultimately the reason to the alteration of human nature. Human nature is described when the novel states, "I mean, when we first got here—all of us—we were real young and innocent, full of romantic bullshit, but we learned pretty damn quick. And so did Mary Anne"(61). Since it is clear that human nature is altered into something which is not innocent, that is "against human nature"(72). As a result, human nature can only be altered if free will exists. Without one's will, the human nature would stay in it's place if not meant to change by an individual's will. Therefore since soldiers in fact possess free will, they are ultimately responsible for changing their own human nature while they tend to blame the bloodshed on the government.
Parminder, your last sentence intrigued me. It's educating to examine how the war changes people through the eyes of a person who was himself, morphed by the war. However, one may argue that these characters, in fact, lack free will. Most of these soldiers- I would argue- went to war despite their feelings and beliefs telling them otherwise. For instance, the author himself did not believe in the war nor its purpose. He decided to go to war because he was afraid of the shame, and judgements by his fellow peers that would befell him. In other words, other peoples view of him ultamitely "forced" him to go to war and conduct the actions he eventually did. Thus, external influences sapped him of his free will. He did not feel free in his choice of whether to go to war or not; the author was trapped by his own emotions and what others would think of him.
In “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong”, I was particularly interested by the way O’Brien cut in and out of the story in order to bring attention to Rat and his listeners. These interruptions made me question the purpose of storytelling and why it is so significantly emphasized. It appears that these stories are being told in order to draw attention away from the war and the possible hardships they may face, and to bring it to someone else’s story or tragedy. When describing Rat’s interruptions of the story, the narrator says, “That just breaks the spell. It destroys the magic” (101). Telling stories allows the men to escape their reality and become part of the story, magically taking them to a different place. This is such a significant escape for them that when Rat fails to complete his story, Mitchell says, “You can’t do that…Jesus Christ, its against the rules” (107) Storytelling is something that they do so often and find so important, that they have “rules” and when one of these rules is broken, it is not taken lightly, as Mitchell continues by saying that it is, “Against human nature” (107). Storytelling is, in a way, their coping mechanism.
Bianca, I agree with your analysis of Rat. As I wrote in my analysis of Rat, the story within a story creates room for interpretation, allowing readers to question the narrative and the reliability of the story. In addition to the story within, cutting in and out of the story creates a mindset that can demonstrate the merge between fantasy and reality. The "magic' being the fantasy, can suffice as coping as well due to as the previously mentioned idea behind PTSD within the narration. Storytelling, being the main aspect of the story, has the affect on all characters, but especially Rat because he relies on his fantasy via storytelling.
This chapter was the most compelling read so far. Mary Anne's transformation helps define the power of the war and its impact on the individuals fighting. Not only did Mary Anne change, but she completely morphed into the essence of Vietnam: "she moved her hand in a gesture that encompasses not just the hootch but everything around it, the entire war, the mountains, the mean little villages, the trails and trees and rivers and deep misted-over valleys" (106). I believe that Mary Anne represents the impact the war had on the soldiers. Each soldier entered the war innocent, fresh, and young- just like Mary Anne. However, by witnessing death and taking a life- something very difficult to do- these soldiers lose a part of themselves. They never regain this chunk of their being; something gets left behind when they return home. At the same time, a part of Vietnam fuses with their being. When these soldiers go home, bits and pieces of "Nam" remain inside them.
Bella, I find it very intriguing how you took a different to approach to Mary Anne's femininity by looking at it in the scope of the war and not just stereotypes. On that note, not only can you say it is in the scope of the war but therefore in the book, as the war shaping the reality of those involved has been a theme we discussed in the other short stories and will probably come up time and time again. The discussion of humanity has also raised a question as I read your response, who is more human, Mary Anne or the soldiers? It could seem as if they are on equal planes of insanity as they both have lost touch with their previous reality, but in the case Mary Anne is she more independent for it?
I like how you say that Mary Anne is morphing into Vietnam and I completely agree with that statement. But, I disagree with your other point in which you say that Mary Anne possibly represents the impact that the war had on the soldiers. Although Mary Anne quickly evolved from a bubbly girl to a scary and mysterious girl, it seemed almost natural for her and even though the story ends with her being somewhat insane, it can be argued that the war did not have a negative effect on her like it did with the soldiers. I felt that instead of losing a part of herself to the war, Mary Anne actually ended up gaining a sense of who she was and a sense of independence.
In "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong", I was interested by how O'Brien uses the story within a story structure to characterize Rat Kiley. In saying that "he wanted to heat up the truth, to make it burn so hot that you would feel exactly what he felt ...facts were formed by sensation" demonstrates Kat's desire for attention, giving into the complex (85). As discussed in class today, in order to create stories that actually draw one in aside from being personal, Kat elasticizes and exaggerates the truth in his stories. Through Rat, O'Brien creates a segue for the reader to question the truth behind the narrative-is it manipulated by other experiences? Additionally, why would the narration reveal questionable aspects if it is supposed to portray personal experience?
In "Sweatheart of the Song Tra Bong", the story deals femininity, a subject that closely mirrors masculinity but was not fully realized until now. The author's view of feminitity is manifested in the form of Mary Anne, a sweetheart turned savage, a transformation summed up in one line: "For a long while the girl gazed down at Fossie, almost blankly, and in the candlelight her face had the composure of someone perfectly at peace with herself". The looming presence of what is about to be described next persists while simtaniously clinging to the belief that Mary Anne is "someone perfectly at peace with herself". Fossie is seen trying to still grapple to his existing image of Mary but that all falls apart with her "blankly" expression already displaying a shift in character.
I like how you connected femininity and masculinity and I agree. Also the idea of a transformation of Mary Anne is something I wrote about as well, it is something that Is pretty great
I wanted to compare Mark Fossie and lieutenant Jimmy Cross. The similarities between the two in terms of women and war go beyond the fact that they both claimed to love a certain girl. The most intriguing similarity is how they ultimately lose them to the war when they are meant to help them cope with the war and remind them of home. For both soldiers, their women were essentially distractions, but they were also their vulnerabilities. For Jimmy, we saw him struggle with holding on to the notion that Martha loved him back and was a virgin while still fulfilling his job as a lieutenant. The loss of a soldier on his watch is Jimmy's reality check-- specialty of the war : " He felt shame... He had loved Martha more than his men" (16). Similarly, we see Fossie falling into this trance of love as well when Mary Anne request that he take her to village and despite the dangers, he caves in because "He loved her" (92). His reality check comes at the moment he realizes how consumed Mary Anne has become in the war and he decides to force her to return back to her original self, only garnering a more forced relationship that ultimately cracks. When both Fossie and Cross loose the women of their lives they show how the effort to alleviate the burden of war by thinking of home can be futile in that it potentially makes your job harder as a soldier.
In the story "The Sweetheart of Song Tra Bong" by Tim O' Brien what I thought was interesting was that how a personality can take a complete 360 degree turn when put in a situation where you have to kill to survive, killing in the process a lot of things -- sentiment, emotions, compassion. Rat Kiley tells the story of Mary Anne, a sweet and bubbly girl. She was young, innocent and non-combatant left unleashed in the jungles of Vietnam, which completely changed the person she was. “‘What happened to her, Rat said, was what happened to all of them. You come over clean and you get dirty and then afterward it’s never the same.” (109) She turns wild and cold. The person she was earlier now represents this very small part of her personality that she no longer identifies with. The wild side of her that was buried deep inside before the Vietnam experience gets exposed. Her disappearing and never turning back from the jungles represents that she never was the same person again. The situation in Vietnam had such a grave impact on her that she could never revert back to her softer self.
In “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” I found it interesting how the author, Tim O’Brien, chooses a female to highlight the effect that war has on one. Through O’Brien using a female allows the readers to understand and connect more to the transformation of men after being in war. Sense men are stereotyped as strong, brave, etc seeing who they become after war won't make much of a difference due the fact that they’re already expected to act such way. On the other hand, when Mary Anne first arrived, she embodied the stereotype of the perfect girl, she “Was an attractive girl...she had terrific legs, a bubbly personality, a happy smile” (90-91). However, after spending several weeks in this type of environment Mary Anne changes not only physically but also mentally, “her blue eyes opaque, she seemed to disappear inside herself … she was dangerous. She was ready to kill” (100-110). Her transformation throughout the story show the effect war actually has on men to the point where they could completely disappear.
In “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” I agree with you and think that in the majority of his other stories he barely talks about women and their how they are affected by men and usually the other way; how men effect women during and after their service to the war. He talked often about qualities of men in his group but never much about women back at home and their qualities. “Among the men in Alpha Company, Rat had a reputation for exaggeration and overstatement, a compulsion to rev up the facts, and for most of us it was normal procedure to discount sixty or seventy percent of anything he had to say.” (85) Question: Do you think other veterans and men in general thought about this how others speak to men and how they think about the conversations mentally? Is it anything about masculinity and many stereotypes or otherwise?
In "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong," Mary Anne in a way becomes a different person. Rat highlights how the war changes is her. Women are usually not portrayed as strong in this time period and only seen as people who are suppose to comfort men. The Story supports her actions by allowing her actions in a way to be rewarded and her curiosity is highlighted as a great quality. Overall this story was great for breaking gender norms for this time period.
I agree with you Karan in that this chapter empowered the idea of women because Mary Anne is able to rid free from the blissful ignorance because she is in the war and fighting. Entering this jungle and living a new life different from her own sparks a change within her that allows for more thinking of her future and with Fossie.
One thing that I found particularly interesting while reading "Sweetheart of the Song Tar Bong" was the relationship between Mary Anne and Mark Fossie. When Mary Anne is first introduced, she is described as a girl who had "terrific legs, a bubbly personality, [and] a happy smile" (95). Her relationship with Mark begins normally, with them being the lovebirds planning out their futures together. As Mary Anne began to get used to being in Vietnam, she became more and more curious about her surrounding and the work that they did at the base. Here, we see that Mary Anne begins to question her future with Mark, showing that she is beginning to evolve, or suggesting that she never saw a future with Mark and now finally feels confident enough to make that clear to him. She also sneaks away one night with the Greenies, which angers Mark, causing him to lash out on Mary Anne. Once he does this, Mary Anne loses her spark and no longer seems happy to be around him. Their relationship seemed to be set off of power. Once Mark felt that he was losing Mary Anne, he decided to portray himself as a threat to her. Mary Anne then decides to run away with the Greenies and lead her own path. This suggest that because of Mark’s disapproval,Mary Anne, who entered the story as an innocent teenage girl, no longer sees a future with him, and has become and has found herself and her independence.
Tim O’Brien talks about the Vietnam War as one of the most unique wars and very different from all the other wars in history. “Vietnam was full of strange stories, some improbable, some well beyond that, but the stories that will last forever are those that swirl back and forth across the border between trivia and bedlam, the mad and the mundane.” (85) He explains how people would try figuring out the stories in their head even though it’s basically impossible to do so. Also, how people deny the stories being true, and that the majority of the stories were about a women and romance. Question: Does Tim O’Brien believe this war was better than other wars or it just was special on its own because he fought in it and prioritized over others? Would other veterans who wrote have probably done the same according to Tim O’Brien? If so, why?
Something I found interesting in this chapter is this new perspective of the genders through the strength of Mary Anne as she works in the base. This chapter challenges the idea of women as one-dimensional beings who serve to offer comfort to men or quietly wait for them away from the action. Mary Anne acting in this war and cooperating shines a new light of women or just the type of woman she wants to be which is not to be with Fossie. Fossie assumes that if he brings Mary Anne over to the relatively quarters he and his men keep, he will gain her comfort and companionship and she will remain unaffected by her surroundings. However it is exactly that isolation that allows for her curiosity to take action since she is aware of her environment and ultimately her purpose. She is empowered by war: its influence prompts her to make plans for future travel and to attempt to steer her path away from the life she earlier considered desirable.
I totally agree with your idea of Mary Anne's empowerment. Similar to what i wrote, back at home, in the life that she considered desirable, she was a woman who had to follow society's guidelines for how a woman should act. Once in Vietnam she was away from these stereotypes and could act 'like a man', she stopped doing her nails and worried less about her hygiene. This opportunity to be free caused her to feel empowered, especially in her lack of fear. Why men go to war with resentment and the fear of being socially shunned, she was able to choose to stay, another empowerment in her ability to chose what she wants to do and how.
In Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong, we get a look into something uncommon, the experience of women at the war. At the end of this chapter, Rat says that he “loved her” because of how she “made [him] think about those girls back home, how pure and innocent” (108). This depiction of his love, in a sense, is an attempt to invalidate her story of being the very tough warrior that she is. This girl breaks the usual stereotypes of women, especially at war, where she is in love with the war and actually tells Fossie that he is in a place “where he doesn’t belong” (106). She destroys the idea of the male soldiers at this camp that they are macho and are actually being useful and productive in this war by telling the men “you hide in this little fortress… you don’t know” (106). She threatens the men’s sense of masculinity by being less afraid than them, and this causes the narrator, Rat, to ostracize her and make his story dark and about how the war negatively affects people, when in reality she became who she wanted to be.
O Brian’s incorporation of the story about Mary Anne was to contrast the expectation of a women versus what they are actually capable of. She was proof that a human in general despite could be consumed by war and soldier mentality which is shown through the imagery of her eyes. Her eyes became “utterly flat and I different...no emotion in her stare” (110) from “innocent pretty blue eyes“(96). Everyone has trouble believing Rat because Mary Anne was a female and truly believed she had no place there or have no role in war. Rat warns them about that sexist thinking and tells them not to underestimate women because they are the same. He says, “Seventeen years old.Just a child blond and innocent, but weren't they all?” This threatens a soldier's machismic ego because she proves that women can just as strong or bold as men and can get a job done even more efficiently.
I am not only petrified to read another page of this book, but I am in utter shock due to the ending of this story. When Mark Fossie and the crew found the crazed Mary Anne, she looked back at their confused faces and said, "There is no sense talking. I know what you think but it's not... it's not bad." Tim O'Brien uses the echo to underline her ill-condition as she is stuttering and struggling to speak normally. She denies the importance of speaking about her condition which makes me wonder about the effects of war. It already has taken its toll on the men who were drafted and here we have a young, pretty woman absolutely obliterated by the war. She is crazy, simply put and knows that she is because she says to the men "I know what you're thinking..."This foreshadows the men's eventual mental downfall, which will force me to look more intensely for signs of PTSD in the soldiers present for this event.
ReplyDeleteMy quote = (106)
DeleteRene, I really appreciate your passion in this post. Your emotion runs through clearly, and that is a great skill in analytical writing. While I agree that Mary Anne's ultimate self-discovery is quite extreme compared to her original self at the beginning of the story, her new self defies the structures that she functioned directly within at the start, which I think is what O'Brien is trying to point towards. For example, when she first takes off with the Green Berets, shortly afterwards she and Fossie get engaged (99), Fossie fearful of her growing independence. At the very end of the story, Eddie Diamond discusses Mary Anne's knack for night patrols; "All camouflaged up, her face smooth and vacant, she seemed to flow like water through the dark, like oil, without sound or center. She went barefoot. She stopped carrying a weapon" (109). Marry Anne gains a certain power from the war. She allows this power to consume her, and to further her abilities for stealth and emotional detachment. She feels so powerful, in fact, that she doesn't even use a weapon. She relies on herself, and herself only, a symbol of liberation from male domination. Interestingly enough, however, by embracing masculine values of emotional detachment, she counteracts a supposedly feminist force that ultimately allows her to find herself.
DeleteRene, I agree with your analysis especially in regards to PTSD. I think that Tim O'Brien is trying to criticize the affects of war on soldiers. Mary Anne starts the short story as an extremely innocent young girl, but ultimately develops into the ultimate killing machine. I think that O'Brien wants to illustrate the fact that war takes tolls on people differently and that some people seem to be naturally wired to survive and to fight in a war like setting while others do not share these characteristics. I find it interesting that as Mary Anne turns more and more into a guerrilla fighter she becomes more and more like her enemy, the Viet Cong, and decides to shed her shoes and enters the jungle barefoot.
DeleteRene, interesting reply, but I disagree with the language that was used. Josef, you used similar language and I think that calling her "crazy" and emphasizing her looks and youth, dehumanizes her and further exhibits the way in which society has not really progressed. Throughout the story, the men continuously found themselves “uncomfortable” with a woman being in a typically man’s job and highlighted the sexism that existed back then, and still unfortunately exists today. This story, and your responses, essentially expose how society treats women who try to compete with men in "a man's domain" as incapable and “crazy” for trying to accomplish the same thing. I think that while you guys both had strong points in the denial of mental illness after the war, by acting as though the “young, pretty woman” in the story cannot handle being “absolutely obliterated by the war” in the same way as a man, it only further pushes the idea of women as too delicate to accomplish the same things as men.
DeleteRene and Josef, I think you both interpreted the text from an interesting perspective. That being said, I simply disagree with your points about the transformation Mary Anne underwent as a result of exposure to the war. Rene, by using the words, "crazy," "young," and "pretty," you paint Mary Anne as more susceptible to the war than the male soldiers, and hint that her transformation was from an innocent girl to a mentally unstable woman. In my opinion, Mary Anne's transformation is one from that of a giggly, flirtatious girl into an empowered, brave woman determined to find herself and not rely on the men around her. Josef, by using the words "ultimate killing machine" to describe the girl, you are stating that Mary-Anne's newfound womanhood and independence makes her mentally unstable and dangerous when, in fact, she is no more of a "killing machine" than any of the soldiers. Although you two make valid points about PTSD, I think a re-evaluation of the lens through which you are looking at this story may be necessary.
DeleteRene and Clara, I definitely agree that O'Brien is illustrating PTSD with Mary Anne's drastic change of identity but also he is trying to portray that inevitably war negatively impacts anyone. He is arguing humans are naturally savages with killer instincts which war perpetuate. When Rat says, “All that crap about how if we had a pussy for president there wouldn't be no more war.pure garbage” (107). This quote is used to criticize the underestimation of women and that they are not as gentle and innocent as they seem to be. O'Brien argues that anyone has the potential to be corrupted by war or that people already are capable of it deep down but the war reveals that hidden dark truth in oneself. He addresses this through the “hunger” Mary has in Vietnam in the jungle and it is the only place she can be “her true self”.
DeleteIn "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong," I was particularly captivated by Mary Anne's transformation from the archetype of a pure, chastised girl to her ultimate stage of a self-discovered woman. When she first arrived at her boyfriend, Mark Fossie's campsite in Vietnam, she embodied the stereotype of a perfect girlfriend, giving "off a kind of come-and-get-me energy, coy and flirtatious...it was the sort of show that a girl will sometimes put on for her boyfriend's entertainment and education" (91). Even in the simple telling of this story, Rat makes it seem as if Mary Anne's every action is in the interest of men, trapping her with the perception that her duty is to serve the man who, with their relationship, she is bound to, bringing to mind colonial concepts of "benevolent" domination. The men find it cute that she takes interest in the war and Vietnam, seeing it as a hobby at most, something to occupy her time with. Throughout the story, however, Mary Anne grows more distant from Fossie as she becomes more involved with the war: "They held hands and made plans for after the war. But now there was a certain imprecision in the way Mary Anne expressed her thoughts on certain subjects...'Naturally we'll get married,' she'd tell him, 'Maybe travel first. Maybe live together. Just to test it out, you know?" (94). The war exposes Mary Anne to a new set of elements, challenging her previous, sheltered view of the world and shaping her vision for the future and how she sees herself. Nearing the end of the story, she leaves one night with the "Greenies," finding peace with herself and the autonomy she achieves in devoting herself to the fight, yet simultaneously abandoning Fossie, who relied on her submission and dependency on him.
ReplyDeleteVery good job, Clara! I really like how you focused on the character development of Mary Anne rather than just one moment that highlighted a bigger component of what she meant to "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong". What strengthened your argument about her change the most is the two pieces of evidence; this was a good touch. I agree completely with everything you say. The way she is introduced to the story makes her seem almost angelic in a way; she literally flies into the soldiers' lives and the description of her beauty lets the reader know everyone is immediately drawn to her. You also did a good job using feminist analysis (like Ms. Fink) when you wrote about how the more she learned about the war and the deeper she got into it, the more independent she became. O'Brien deliberately added this story to promote the idea of women power.
DeleteClara, I really like your point about Fossie having relied upon Mary Anne’s submissive nature as a form of affirmation of his male dominance. Mary Anne is incredibly unique in the way that she overturns the classic narrative of women waiting at home for their glorious husbands and boyfriends to return from the war. She not only demonstrates the authority women can exert over men, but also conveys how war can in a sense, weaponize people. As Rat says, Mary Anne was “‘up to her eyeballs in [war]’’ and her complete submersion into the barbaric nature of war dehumanized her (114); the release from societal expectations freed Mary Anne to embrace the unrestrained, animalistic nature deep within her--the id. Despite the power of her character, there is also something oddly degrading about the way O’Brien uses this woman as a means of depicting the savagery, recklessness, and all-consuming nature of war. In the story, Mary Anne is forced into two class female archetypes: the angel in the house, and the vixen. This unbalanced portrayal of women also serves to depict the skewed perception of reality in war; a moderate Mary Anne may not have fit into a war story.
DeleteI really like your post, Clara. I think the feminist approach and almost the slight making fun of how silly men can be is really interesting. Especially in a war environment, the men start to become lost within the moral standards they hold and are detached from reality, but of course it is a woman that brings them back to who they are. Not only do they slightly drool over her, but at least it brings them a little bit back to reality and give them a normal sense of humanity. Obviously, it's not good that they all sexualize her, but it does highlight the fact that they do miss their lives home and love, and their desire for women. But I do really like the little add of feminism into this novel because it just goes to show that women did have some power during this time period, even if it obviously wasn't sufficient yet, they could still drive men crazy and provide extra motivation.
DeleteIn “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” I found it interesting how the author, Tim O’Brien, introduces “Mary Anne Bell [as] an attractive girl” (95). She finds herself amongst soldiers that haven't been around women in a while and they are quick to examine her physical appearance. The narrator observes how Mary Anne was “too wide in the shoulders, maybe, but she had terrific legs” and notes that the guys appreciated it when she wore “a black swimsuit top” around them (95). Ironically, she seems to be the only person that's progressing amongst relatively stagnant characters; everyone else is already used to life in the war and doesn't question their surroundings. Additionally, because they're confined in an environment where asking questions is frowned upon, Mary Anne provides a refreshing new feeling by wanting to learn more. Furthermore, I wasn't expecting Mary Anne to become so involved in the war, even more so than her male counterparts. According to Rat, the war consumed her by providing adrenaline kicks that, like drugs, had her hooked and empowered her in a way that she hadn't experienced before.
ReplyDeleteI love you're analysis of how Mary Anne is depicted versus her "progression" compared to all the other characters. However, I would argue whether you would define her character in the story as "progressing" in the first place. While I understand it is easy to see Mary Anne as the anti-thesis to the whole stereotypical masculine movement (and the idea that war is for men), and to see her as sort of defying the norms of how men see women, I just do not think it is accurate for this particular story. In fact, I feel as though Mary Anne has not "progressed" as much as the other characters at all, because she cannot move past the war. She is stuck in the war, and all the horror of it, and at the end of story she never seems to get out. In fact, this story can be taken as an insult towards women, and the idea that they cannot stomach and handle the idea of war. That they cannot get past it.
DeleteThe short story "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" details the experience of Rat Kiley at a medical outpost a top a mountain in Vietnam. The short story revolves around Mary Anne Bell, Mark Fossie's girlfriend coming to the outpost. The story consists of Rat's observations of Mary Anne as Vietnam changes her. "She had long white legs and blue eyes and a complexion like strawberry ice cream," (89) Rat's initial observations of Mary Anne stand in stark contrast to his final experiences with her: "There was no emotion in her stare, no sense of the person behind it... At the girl's throat was a necklace of human tongues," (105). The drastic change that Mary Anne undergoes in the brief period that she spends at the outpost is representative of how war can affect a person. In choosing to use Mary Anne to highlight this affect, Tim O'Brien shows not only that war influences everyone in different and sometimes unexpected ways, but also that men are clearly no more capable of engaging in combat than women are. Rat's way of describing the outcome Mary Anne's experience does seem to express concern, which strongly suggests that the war's affect on her was particularly tragic.
ReplyDeleteWow Josef, I found your view on this story very interesting. I too was tracking Mary Anne’s role in this chapter and found her character to be fascinating. Despite looking at the same character as you I came to a different understanding of the chapter. I found it very interesting that you saw the evolution of Mary Anne as an example of how war changes people. I agree with your assertion that O’Brien included her to show how women were capable of doing any job a man can do. However I thought that Mary Anne’s character exposed the soldiers desperation to hold onto any piece of America they could while they were fighting in Vietnam. Rather than show how war changes people I believe she symbolizes the struggle of women in America, as can be seen through the way the soldiers look at her, and her place on a warzone being questioned by the men.
DeleteIn “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong,” I was particularly interested by the motif of eating. When Mary Anne tells Fossie that he does not belong in the war, she explains, “‘Sometimes I want to eat this place. Vietnam. I want to swallow the whole country--the dirt, the death--I just want to eat it and have it there inside me...It’s like...this appetite” (111). Not only is Mary Anne’s appetite for war a reflection of the animal hidden inside her initially composed and conformist character, but her appetite also serves as a foil the to men’s failure to live up to the stereotype of bold, blood-hungry soldiers. Rather than seeking comfort in the liberty of war--the lack of order and societal confines that war provides--Fossie and the other men find comfort in the idea of home, which they perceive in tangence with the idea of marriage and having a sweetheart awaiting their return. In reality, they hunger for love and security; they do not know how to embrace the barbaric nature of war because their minds are elsewhere. The hunger for war stories comes out of an appetite for the control and sentiment lost in the chaos of war.
ReplyDeleteTo add on to your point, it is ironic that Mary Anne develops this craving and determination for war since from the beginning she was meant to symbolize home. When at first playing around with the idea of bringing her over to Vietnam, one soldier argues that they are deserving of the opportunity, that they "pay our fuckin' dues" (88). For Mark Fossie, Mary Anne is the literal embodiment of home--before she has her transformation. We start to see the importance of this connection as the Mary becomes more and more involved with the war and we see the transition from hearing about her love story to hearing about the increasing tension between her and Fossie as he begins essentially loosing her. In addition, Fossie's relationship starts to crack as he attempts to distance Mary Anne from the war and transform her back only succeeded to increase the tension. Mary Anne no longer serves her initial purpose in providing comfort and familiarity as she becomes alienated to her boyfriend and the rest of the soldiers.
DeleteI found the response to Mary Anne’s “transformation” to be the most interesting part of the reading because it revealed the way that women were viewed at the time. When Mary Anne arrived she was perceived as feminine and fragile, but as a result of living in a war zone, she loses this sense of femininity. I think that O’Brien is critiquing the standard at the time that women could not do what men could do. When Mary Anne finds “a new confidence in her voice, a new authority in the way she carried herself,” (94) the men respond with discomfort in her displaying typically masculine traits. However, they do not stop to realize that she is the happiest she has been in her whole life. Additionally, after Fossie had a “talk” with Mary Anne, she wore a “white blouse, a navy blue skirt, and a pair of plain black flats” (98). Because it seems baffling to Fossie that a woman could do the same job as him, and maybe even do it better, he has to make Mary Anne act more feminine so he can continue to feel superior in his role as the man.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree, Emma and I liked the way you described how he needed her to be more feminine. I think Mary Anne challenged their perception of what it meant to be a woman at the time, in a way that was threatening to them. Specifically, Fossie was scared of being overshadowed by his girlfriend, which is why they ended up fighting. At first, I was going to slightly disagree because of how Rat described her at the end. When he said that he was in love with her and that he felt like she was one of the only girls that could understand the war, I thought that his perception contrasted Fossies. However, on second thought, he only likes her because she could understand his problems, regarding the war. He liked that she could relate to him in a way that many of his family and friends back home wouldn’t be able to; he didn’t like her for who she was.
DeleteIn "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong," I found particularly interesting Mark Fossie's downfall at the hands of his girlfriend's, Mary Anne Bell, self discovery and independence. At the start of the story, Tim O'Brien characterizes Mary Anne Bell, the girl that Mark Fossie brought to Vietnam for his own pleasure, as "giving off a kind of come-and-get-me energy," and "coy and flirtatious" (95). In this same section of he story, O'Brien characterizes the relationship as healthy, and Mary and Mark as deeply in love. However, it is when Mary Anne starts to make the country of Vietnam her own that the relationship starts to waver. Later in the story, after becoming acclimated to the war, Mary states, "Sometimes I want to eat this place. Vietnam...That's how I feel. I feel close to myself. When I'm out there at night...it's like I'm full of electricity and I'm glowing in the dark" (111). Using the word "electricity" to describe Mary's emotions about Vietnam, O'Brien makes a direct contrast between her original entertainment --the soldiers-- with her newfound devotion: the country of Vietnam. Right after the scene in which Mary is quoted saying this, the relationship between Mary and Mark completely unravels, mainly because he cannot fathom the idea of being with a woman who is independent, a woman who relies on anything but himself for amusement.
ReplyDeleteVery nice job Julia! I think you analyzed the text very well and I completely see eye to eye with your point. It was very interesting to see the downfall of Mary Anne giving up full self up to Mark Fossie because in the beginning it seemed as though she wanted to get to know, connect and relate with him more. However, as the story went on and as her time with him extended, she began to grow as an independent character. Which I believe forced her to become a character with more concern for the world around her, and this gave her strength to experience and question the life events that Mark Fossie gets to experience, hands on. Something I found interesting which was related to your point was when Rat explained their relationship by stating, “If Mary Anne happened to move a few steps away from him, even briefly, he’d tighten up and force himself not to watch her” (99). Which clearly shows that he couldn’t cope with the fact that she didn’t want to be with him all the time, and for a man, this is all they want, especially through such a hard period in their life time, where they have to put all of their own desires aside and have fully embodied becoming a soldier. The fact that O’Brien includes, “even briefly” puts into clear perspective just how offended he is by the slightest action of a woman becoming an independent, and this signals to Mark Fossie that she doesn’t need any support from the male figure and as a whole, she doesn't have to depend on him.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIn “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” Tim O’Brien considers the actions, feelings and emotions of Mary Anne, a female character, who is also Mark Fossie’s girlfriend. I find it very interesting that O’Brien decides to mention what occurs when Mary Anne visits her boyfriend during the war. While she is there, instead of spending quality time with her loved one, she is fascinated by the circumstances and conditions that he lives under. To add, Tim O’Brien clearly outlines Mary Anne’s passions, and while doing so, he poses the idea of a woman embodying a male affiliated role. For example, O’Brien writes, “Mary Anne wasn’t afraid to get her hands bloody... Not the gore so much but the adrenaline buzz that went with the job, that quick hot rush in your veins when the choppers settled down and you had to do things fast and right” (93). This portion of the reading, not only shows how strong and brave Mary Anne wants to be, but it addresses the larger message of a woman embodying and having the right to stand in masculine shoes, by thinking quick and for the willingness to work around events that occur during the war. By including that Mary Anne was not afraid of getting her “hands bloody,” she immediately is thought of as a non stereotypical woman since most woman would not be as willing to work close to war and be so fast to think on their feet during crucial moments in somebodies lifetime. Furthermore, this is the first direct perspective of a woman that readers have been exposed to and throughout this reading it is seen that woman who have loved ones in the war, only want to be closer to their over ones. Which touches on the idea that while men are at war, woman also build strength and courage for braving the war, because of how strong the love is. In relation to “How to Tell a True War Story” Mary Anne’s desire and compassion for Mark Fossie and his role in society portray the massage that “It wasn’t a war story. It was a love story” (81), because through it all, she always wanted to stay by his side.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I found very interesting was O’Brien’s (based on the way Kiley’s story was recited) natural tendency to claim that females were blind to the horrors of war, ultimately declaring them unfit for the job. While reciting Kiley’s story, O’Brien narrates, “She seemed comfortable and entirely at home; the hostile atmosphere did not seem to register” (96). Since, Mary Anne is doing so well, O’Brien and Kiley, must make it seem like she is ignorant to the war because she is a female. I found this particularly interesting because one main reason Kiley retells this story, was to prove that women were not weak, and they will be just as crazy and lost as men if they were in Vietnam as well. However, despite this, you still get this sense of “masculinity” and the idea that only men understand war, while in reality, no one does. In fact, I think she is used to represent all that the men feel has happened to themselves, however, they use her to express these thoughts because it is easier to deem her “weak” and “ignorant to the war” because she is a women.
ReplyDeleteI think one of the most interesting parts of this chapter is the role of women in the war. From what we have read the only women we have heard about is Martha who has been reduced to a romanticized fantasy of Lieutenant Kinney’s. Tim O’Brien including the character of Mary Anne to challenge the perception of women as fragile and weak. Mary Anne betrays this stereotype as the chapter progresses, “All camouflaged up, her face smooth and vacant, she seemed to flow like water through the dark, like oil, without sound or center. She went barefoot. She stopped carrying a weapon" (109). Mary Anne’s ability to prove that women can do any job a man can do is discomforting to the soldiers as it challenges their belief that they are superior. Ultimately O’Brien inclusion of a female character in the foreign land of Vietnam is meant to show how soldiers who were off fighting in wars clung to American societal views to make them feel more at home and comfortable
ReplyDeleteHarry, I completely agree with your argument that soldiers stood by women's standards in American to make them more at ease. This is seen through Fossie, who goes from being incredibly proud of his girlfriend and letting her act as she want, to wanting complete control over her. When Mary Anne flirts with the other soldiers it does not bother him as “it was the sort of show that a girl will sometimes put on for her boyfriend’s entertainment” (91). As long as Mary Anne succeeds in providing for his “entertainment”, Fossie is happy. Yet when she begins to learn things for herself at the base, eventually doing even more than he does and attends an ambush, he lashes out and makes her act a certain way, in order to assert his manhood and perpetuate the societal norms of the U.S.
DeleteHarry, I completely agree with your argument that soldiers stood by women's standards in American to make them more at ease. This is seen through Fossie, who goes from being incredibly proud of his girlfriend and letting her act as she want, to wanting complete control over her. When Mary Anne flirts with the other soldiers it does not bother him as “it was the sort of show that a girl will sometimes put on for her boyfriend’s entertainment” (91). As long as Mary Anne succeeds in providing for his “entertainment”, Fossie is happy. Yet when she begins to learn things for herself at the base, eventually doing even more than he does and attends an ambush, he lashes out and makes her act a certain way, in order to assert his manhood and perpetuate the societal norms of the U.S.
DeleteWhen Mary Anne arrived to visit her boyfriend, she was described as a young, immature, fun, seventeen year old girl. However, by the end of the chapter she has completely transformed into an emotionless killer. Rat justifies this transformation as it “was what happened to all of them. You come over clean and you get dirty and then afterward it’s never the same” (109). Mary Anne slowly assimilated to the ways of life in Vietnam on an American base, physically changing her style, learning to handle weapons, the language, and other sorts of skills. Although being in that environment could have been what made her “dirty”, it is also due to Fossie’s controlling her. After Mary Anne begins changing, his reaction is what changes her completely; now turning to isolation: “her blue eyes opaque, she seemed to disappear inside herself” (100). It is uncertain how Mary Anne would have turned out if Fossie had not become so oppressive, but it definitely played a part in making her “ready for the kill” (110);
ReplyDeleteI love your analysis, Lilith. It really made me think deeper about Mary Anne’s transformation. Initially, I thought that the war was the only thing that had caused Mary Anne to change. The color transition of her eyes from blue to green symbolized how immersed she was in the war. However, it’s interesting to think about how controlling Mark Fossie was, and how that could’ve been a reason for her transformation as well. All throughout the story, Mary Anne seemed to have been moving further and further away from Fossie until she stopped visiting him completely, and that was when she had reached her full transformation. Maybe she’d found her true self when she’d been handling those weapons and learning other new skills, which, stereotypically during that time, wasn’t a feminine aspect. Fossie could’ve been the only thing stopping her from being who she really was, and by moving away from him, she was able to reveal her true self, no matter how scary or “dangerous” she seemed to people.
DeleteLilith, this is a very strong point, in fact I had not even about it until you addressed it. The relationship Mary Anne has with Mark seems fairly normal. After reading your post, maybe the relationship between the two was never really authentic. I think it is clear that Mark was controlling her in some kind of way which is why she changes so quickly once she gets the chance to. This was probably something that was always hidden inside her, and it just so happens that she changes her lifestyle in Vietnam. There had to be something attractive about Vietnam for Mary Anne to change her life based on Vietnamese culture, because she had spent all the time away from Mark in the states. In addition, I believe Mark was always afraid of Mary Anne becoming “dirty” which is why he kept her so close and also why he was so disgusted with her when she came back.
DeleteIn “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” I was interested by how O'brien introduced “Mary Anne Bell [as] an attractive girl” (101). I thought it was interesting since she found herself within a lot of men that have not been around women and become almost savage like due to her appearance. In the book, she was described as “too wide in the shoulders, maybe, but she had terrific legs” (94), this over-description of her shows how women are sexualized among men at war. O'brien continues to describe how the men enjoyed her wearing a black swimsuit top to make it even more sexual. Furthermore, because they're in an environment where asking questions is frowned upon, Mary Anne provides a refreshing new feeling by wanting to learn more. I wasn't expecting Mary Anne to become so involved in the war, even more so than her male counterparts. She really cared a lot about it, which seems surprising because war is stereotypically seen as always being dominated by men.
ReplyDeleteIn “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong", what I found particularly interesting--and terrifying at the very least--was the transformation of Mary Anne throughout the story. Her transformation from “an attractive girl” with “terrific legs”, “a bubbly personality” and “a happy smile” (90) to “dangerous” and “ready for the kill” reveals how much of a toll war can have on people (110). Not only does war physically destroy people’s lives, but it also destroys them mentally as well, even if they haven’t been physically harmed. Even though the men had been there for much longer than Mary Anne, she seemed to be the one who was affected the most because of the war. Though at first glance, it might seem that Mary Anne had transformed negatively as a result of being surrounded by the war, there’s a possibility that it’s actually more positive, and we’re only seeing it in a negative way because of the dark, gloomy tone of the story. Being surrounded by the war could’ve very well transformed her into an empowered woman rather than the stereotypical young girl that she was initially perceived as. Because of the fact that how she was behaving was against the female stereotypes during that time, her transformation is perceived as rather scary and depressing. Overall, war leaves a permanent scar on people’s lives forever, just as it did for Mary Anne.
ReplyDeleteGreat job Mahyea! I’m very interesting in the fact that you viewed her transformation as something positive. After reading tonight reading the thought of her transformation as something negative but after reading your analysis I agree that there is a possibility that it is actually more positive than negative. After her transformation she says, “Sometimes I want to eat this place. The whole country--the dirt, the death-- I just want to swallow it and have it there inside me. That’s how I feel. It’s like this appetite. You know? I feel close to myself. When I’m out there at night, I feel close to my own body.” (106) She talks about “This appetite” which make seem like she's been having this appetite for freedom to be able to feel close to herself, to her own body. She has finally walked away from the female stereotype leaving her satisfied.
DeleteWhat amazed me when reading “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” was how Mark Fossie was basically the exact opposite of Jimmy Cross. As you can remember, Cross was the one who kept pictures of Martha a girl he wished he could have a relationship with. Mark Fossie on the other hand had a girlfriend. The relationship was clearly strong as Mary, Mark’s girlfriend was described as: "coy and flirtatious" (95). Jimmy Cross was clearly missing out on this with Martha. The relationship between the two was one sided and seemingly incomparable to Mark and Mary’s. However it is the strong relationship that destroys the characters. Mark’s downfall is caused by not letting go of Mary in a time where he had to. He was to attached to one image of her, the happy one that was there just when he needed her. When she becomes truly somewhat of a Vietnam junkie, Mark is appalled, as he cannot grasp the idea of her having to do with anything Vietnam. Jimmy understands that his relationship with the photos of Martha is unhealthy which leads to burning the photos, thus releasing himself from her grasp. As far as I know Jimmy is fine, but clearly Mark is not.
ReplyDeleteIncredible Nick! I completely agree with your connection between Lieutenant Cross and Mark Fossie. I think that both are very emotionally troubled and wanted to connect with an image that reminds them of home. In this case Mark actually brings his girlfriend over, as an attempt to not lose his sense of emotion at war. I think that his desire to hold onto his life back at home is what makes his downfall easier when Mary chooses to stay in Vietnam. I agree that Jimmy’s way to try and keep a hold of his emotions is through the burning of the photos, and in this case Mark tried to send Mary back home. I agree that it is this strong relationship that makes it harder for Mark to separate himself from Mary, causing him to not let her go back home in time. I think that it was the result of not taking into account that war can change people. As Rat says, “I mean, when we first got here-- all of us-- we were real young and innocent, full of romantic bullshit, but we learned pretty damn quick. And so did Mary Anne” (97). This goes alongside your point on how Mark desire to be next to Mary and his decision to hold on to her, is what eventually causes her to experience war and change as a result of it.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIn “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” I found Mary Anne’s role in war to be the most interesting. The soldiers at the base immediately find that “she was good for morale” (95). The immediate impression many of the soldiers have with Mary Anne’s presence, revolved around the idea that war is no place for a women. She is seen as innocent and fragile, and in no circumstance to be exposed to the horrors of war. Although Mary Anne’s transformation challenges these ideas: “She took a greedy pleasure in night patrols. She was good at it; she had the moves” (110). Despite Mary Anne’s transformation proving the notion that females can be in war, many of the male figures reject this possibility and consider it to be “impossible.” By challenging these gender norms, she leaves other soldiers to question their authority. The inability to accept this idea is reflected by branding Rats story as untrue by other soldiers as a way to justify their machismo.
ReplyDeleteClarence, I personally agree with the notion that Mary Anne's role in the war represents the idea that females can up rise men or can even be as equitable as men in a patriarchy. However, is it also fair to say that rather than battling with the male and female power, the author was simply trying to show how war can effect human nature? By stating that “She took a greedy pleasure in night patrols. She was good at it; she had the moves” (110), can also mean that war can immediately alter human nature, thus attaching an individual (surprisingly also women) to the war/bloodshed mindset. Because although this definitely reflects the parallel between gender roles, in the book, it was stated that: "I mean, when we first got here—all of us—we were real young and innocent, full of romantic bullshit, but we learned pretty damn quick. And so did Mary Anne"(61). Therefore when he says they learned quick, that can just be a reference to how any individual is able to adapt to the war mindset, thereby having one's human nature altered.
DeleteClarence, I really like and appreciate how you acknowledge what is being said about both female gender norms and male gender norms. Mary Anne definitely defies the men’s expectations through her transformation. On the other hand, the men, as you say, show a sense of determination to reject the possibility of this in order to maintain their manliness. I think that another significant demonstration of this necessity to maintain authority or credibility is seen through Rat’s overwhelming desire to almost prove himself and receive validation from the men listening to his story. In a moment like this, Rat says, “I know it sounds far-out…but it’s not like impossible or anything. We all heard plenty of wackier stories…well, its not like that…I saw it” (101-102). Rat cannot accept that one might not completely believe what he speaks of. If he wants to be viewed as a man who is respectable and honorable, he cannot have people questioning the validity of his story. He feels such a desire to prove himself that he frequently interrupts his story to make comments such as the one above and it even begins to annoy the men. Perhaps being able to tell a true war story is significant in order for one to be viewed as a manly man.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSince “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” mentions the human nature and how it is altered, free will exists and is ultimately the reason to the alteration of human nature. Human nature is described when the novel states, "I mean, when we first got here—all of us—we were real young and innocent, full of romantic bullshit, but we learned pretty damn quick. And so did Mary Anne"(61). Since it is clear that human nature is altered into something which is not innocent, that is "against human nature"(72). As a result, human nature can only be altered if free will exists. Without one's will, the human nature would stay in it's place if not meant to change by an individual's will. Therefore since soldiers in fact possess free will, they are ultimately responsible for changing their own human nature while they tend to blame the bloodshed on the government.
ReplyDeleteParminder, your last sentence intrigued me. It's educating to examine how the war changes people through the eyes of a person who was himself, morphed by the war. However, one may argue that these characters, in fact, lack free will. Most of these soldiers- I would argue- went to war despite their feelings and beliefs telling them otherwise. For instance, the author himself did not believe in the war nor its purpose. He decided to go to war because he was afraid of the shame, and judgements by his fellow peers that would befell him. In other words, other peoples view of him ultamitely "forced" him to go to war and conduct the actions he eventually did. Thus, external influences sapped him of his free will. He did not feel free in his choice of whether to go to war or not; the author was trapped by his own emotions and what others would think of him.
DeleteIn “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong”, I was particularly interested by the way O’Brien cut in and out of the story in order to bring attention to Rat and his listeners. These interruptions made me question the purpose of storytelling and why it is so significantly emphasized. It appears that these stories are being told in order to draw attention away from the war and the possible hardships they may face, and to bring it to someone else’s story or tragedy. When describing Rat’s interruptions of the story, the narrator says, “That just breaks the spell. It destroys the magic” (101). Telling stories allows the men to escape their reality and become part of the story, magically taking them to a different place. This is such a significant escape for them that when Rat fails to complete his story, Mitchell says, “You can’t do that…Jesus Christ, its against the rules” (107) Storytelling is something that they do so often and find so important, that they have “rules” and when one of these rules is broken, it is not taken lightly, as Mitchell continues by saying that it is, “Against human nature” (107). Storytelling is, in a way, their coping mechanism.
ReplyDeleteBianca, I agree with your analysis of Rat. As I wrote in my analysis of Rat, the story within a story creates room for interpretation, allowing readers to question the narrative and the reliability of the story. In addition to the story within, cutting in and out of the story creates a mindset that can demonstrate the merge between fantasy and reality. The "magic' being the fantasy, can suffice as coping as well due to as the previously mentioned idea behind PTSD within the narration. Storytelling, being the main aspect of the story, has the affect on all characters, but especially Rat because he relies on his fantasy via storytelling.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis chapter was the most compelling read so far. Mary Anne's transformation helps define the power of the war and its impact on the individuals fighting. Not only did Mary Anne change, but she completely morphed into the essence of Vietnam: "she moved her hand in a gesture that encompasses not just the hootch but everything around it, the entire war, the mountains, the mean little villages, the trails and trees and rivers and deep misted-over valleys" (106). I believe that Mary Anne represents the impact the war had on the soldiers. Each soldier entered the war innocent, fresh, and young- just like Mary Anne. However, by witnessing death and taking a life- something very difficult to do- these soldiers lose a part of themselves. They never regain this chunk of their being; something gets left behind when they return home. At the same time, a part of Vietnam fuses with their being. When these soldiers go home, bits and pieces of "Nam" remain inside them.
ReplyDeleteBella, I find it very intriguing how you took a different to approach to Mary Anne's femininity by looking at it in the scope of the war and not just stereotypes. On that note, not only can you say it is in the scope of the war but therefore in the book, as the war shaping the reality of those involved has been a theme we discussed in the other short stories and will probably come up time and time again. The discussion of humanity has also raised a question as I read your response, who is more human, Mary Anne or the soldiers? It could seem as if they are on equal planes of insanity as they both have lost touch with their previous reality, but in the case Mary Anne is she more independent for it?
DeleteI like how you say that Mary Anne is morphing into Vietnam and I completely agree with that statement. But, I disagree with your other point in which you say that Mary Anne possibly represents the impact that the war had on the soldiers. Although Mary Anne quickly evolved from a bubbly girl to a scary and mysterious girl, it seemed almost natural for her and even though the story ends with her being somewhat insane, it can be argued that the war did not have a negative effect on her like it did with the soldiers. I felt that instead of losing a part of herself to the war, Mary Anne actually ended up gaining a sense of who she was and a sense of independence.
DeleteIn "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong", I was interested by how O'Brien uses the story within a story structure to characterize Rat Kiley. In saying that "he wanted to heat up the truth, to make it burn so hot that you would feel exactly what he felt ...facts were formed by sensation" demonstrates Kat's desire for attention, giving into the complex (85). As discussed in class today, in order to create stories that actually draw one in aside from being personal, Kat elasticizes and exaggerates the truth in his stories. Through Rat, O'Brien creates a segue for the reader to question the truth behind the narrative-is it manipulated by other experiences? Additionally, why would the narration reveal questionable aspects if it is supposed to portray personal experience?
ReplyDeleteIn "Sweatheart of the Song Tra Bong", the story deals femininity, a subject that closely mirrors masculinity but was not fully realized until now. The author's view of feminitity is manifested in the form of Mary Anne, a sweetheart turned savage, a transformation summed up in one line: "For a long while the girl gazed down at Fossie, almost blankly, and in the candlelight her face had the composure of someone perfectly at peace with herself". The looming presence of what is about to be described next persists while simtaniously clinging to the belief that Mary Anne is "someone perfectly at peace with herself". Fossie is seen trying to still grapple to his existing image of Mary but that all falls apart with her "blankly" expression already displaying a shift in character.
ReplyDeleteI like how you connected femininity and masculinity and I agree. Also the idea of a transformation of Mary Anne is something I wrote about as well, it is something that Is pretty great
DeleteI wanted to compare Mark Fossie and lieutenant Jimmy Cross. The similarities between the two in terms of women and war go beyond the fact that they both claimed to love a certain girl. The most intriguing similarity is how they ultimately lose them to the war when they are meant to help them cope with the war and remind them of home. For both soldiers, their women were essentially distractions, but they were also their vulnerabilities. For Jimmy, we saw him struggle with holding on to the notion that Martha loved him back and was a virgin while still fulfilling his job as a lieutenant. The loss of a soldier on his watch is Jimmy's reality check-- specialty of the war : " He felt shame... He had loved Martha more than his men" (16). Similarly, we see Fossie falling into this trance of love as well when Mary Anne request that he take her to village and despite the dangers, he caves in because "He loved her" (92). His reality check comes at the moment he realizes how consumed Mary Anne has become in the war and he decides to force her to return back to her original self, only garnering a more forced relationship that ultimately cracks. When both Fossie and Cross loose the women of their lives they show how the effort to alleviate the burden of war by thinking of home can be futile in that it potentially makes your job harder as a soldier.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteIn the story "The Sweetheart of Song Tra Bong" by Tim O' Brien what I thought was interesting was that how a personality can take a complete 360 degree turn when put in a situation where you have to kill to survive, killing in the process a lot of things -- sentiment, emotions, compassion. Rat Kiley tells the story of Mary Anne, a sweet and bubbly girl. She was young, innocent and non-combatant left unleashed in the jungles of Vietnam, which completely changed the person she was. “‘What happened to her, Rat said, was what happened to all of them. You come over clean and you get dirty and then afterward it’s never the same.” (109)
She turns wild and cold. The person she was earlier now represents this very small part of her personality that she no longer identifies with. The wild side of her that was buried deep inside before the Vietnam experience gets exposed. Her disappearing and never turning back from the jungles represents that she never was the same person again. The situation in Vietnam had such a grave impact on her that she could never revert back to her softer self.
In “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” I found it interesting how the author, Tim O’Brien, chooses a female to highlight the effect that war has on one. Through O’Brien using a female allows the readers to understand and connect more to the transformation of men after being in war. Sense men are stereotyped as strong, brave, etc seeing who they become after war won't make much of a difference due the fact that they’re already expected to act such way. On the other hand, when Mary Anne first arrived, she embodied the stereotype of the perfect girl, she “Was an attractive girl...she had terrific legs, a bubbly personality, a happy smile” (90-91). However, after spending several weeks in this type of environment Mary Anne changes not only physically but also mentally, “her blue eyes opaque, she seemed to disappear inside herself … she was dangerous. She was ready to kill” (100-110). Her transformation throughout the story show the effect war actually has on men to the point where they could completely disappear.
ReplyDeleteIn “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong” I agree with you and think that in the majority of his other stories he barely talks about women and their how they are affected by men and usually the other way; how men effect women during and after their service to the war. He talked often about qualities of men in his group but never much about women back at home and their qualities. “Among the men in Alpha Company, Rat had a reputation for exaggeration and overstatement, a compulsion to rev up the facts, and for most of us it was normal procedure to discount sixty or seventy percent of anything he had to say.” (85)
DeleteQuestion: Do you think other veterans and men in general thought about this how others speak to men and how they think about the conversations mentally? Is it anything about masculinity and many stereotypes or otherwise?
In "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong," Mary Anne in a way becomes a different person. Rat highlights how the war changes is her. Women are usually not portrayed as strong in this time period and only seen as people who are suppose to comfort men. The Story supports her actions by allowing her actions in a way to be rewarded and her curiosity is highlighted as a great quality. Overall this story was great for breaking gender norms for this time period.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Karan in that this chapter empowered the idea of women because Mary Anne is able to rid free from the blissful ignorance because she is in the war and fighting. Entering this jungle and living a new life different from her own sparks a change within her that allows for more thinking of her future and with Fossie.
DeleteOne thing that I found particularly interesting while reading "Sweetheart of the Song Tar Bong" was the relationship between Mary Anne and Mark Fossie. When Mary Anne is first introduced, she is described as a girl who had "terrific legs, a bubbly personality, [and] a happy smile" (95). Her relationship with Mark begins normally, with them being the lovebirds planning out their futures together. As Mary Anne began to get used to being in Vietnam, she became more and more curious about her surrounding and the work that they did at the base. Here, we see that Mary Anne begins to question her future with Mark, showing that she is beginning to evolve, or suggesting that she never saw a future with Mark and now finally feels confident enough to make that clear to him. She also sneaks away one night with the Greenies, which angers Mark, causing him to lash out on Mary Anne. Once he does this, Mary Anne loses her spark and no longer seems happy to be around him. Their relationship seemed to be set off of power. Once Mark felt that he was losing Mary Anne, he decided to portray himself as a threat to her. Mary Anne then decides to run away with the Greenies and lead her own path. This suggest that because of Mark’s disapproval,Mary Anne, who entered the story as an innocent teenage girl, no longer sees a future with him, and has become and has found herself and her independence.
ReplyDeleteTim O’Brien talks about the Vietnam War as one of the most unique wars and very different from all the other wars in history. “Vietnam was full of strange stories, some improbable, some well beyond that, but the stories that will last forever are those that swirl back and forth across the border between trivia and bedlam, the mad and the mundane.” (85) He explains how people would try figuring out the stories in their head even though it’s basically impossible to do so. Also, how people deny the stories being true, and that the majority of the stories were about a women and romance.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Does Tim O’Brien believe this war was better than other wars or it just was special on its own because he fought in it and prioritized over others? Would other veterans who wrote have probably done the same according to Tim O’Brien? If so, why?
Something I found interesting in this chapter is this new perspective of the genders through the strength of Mary Anne as she works in the base. This chapter challenges the idea of women as one-dimensional beings who serve to offer comfort to men or quietly wait for them away from the action. Mary Anne acting in this war and cooperating shines a new light of women or just the type of woman she wants to be which is not to be with Fossie. Fossie assumes that if he brings Mary Anne over to the relatively quarters he and his men keep, he will gain her comfort and companionship and she will remain unaffected by her surroundings. However it is exactly that isolation that allows for her curiosity to take action since she is aware of her environment and ultimately her purpose. She is empowered by war: its influence prompts her to make plans for future travel and to attempt to steer her path away from the life she earlier considered desirable.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with your idea of Mary Anne's empowerment. Similar to what i wrote, back at home, in the life that she considered desirable, she was a woman who had to follow society's guidelines for how a woman should act. Once in Vietnam she was away from these stereotypes and could act 'like a man', she stopped doing her nails and worried less about her hygiene. This opportunity to be free caused her to feel empowered, especially in her lack of fear. Why men go to war with resentment and the fear of being socially shunned, she was able to choose to stay, another empowerment in her ability to chose what she wants to do and how.
DeleteIn Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong, we get a look into something uncommon, the experience of women at the war. At the end of this chapter, Rat says that he “loved her” because of how she “made [him] think about those girls back home, how pure and innocent” (108). This depiction of his love, in a sense, is an attempt to invalidate her story of being the very tough warrior that she is. This girl breaks the usual stereotypes of women, especially at war, where she is in love with the war and actually tells Fossie that he is in a place “where he doesn’t belong” (106). She destroys the idea of the male soldiers at this camp that they are macho and are actually being useful and productive in this war by telling the men “you hide in this little fortress… you don’t know” (106). She threatens the men’s sense of masculinity by being less afraid than them, and this causes the narrator, Rat, to ostracize her and make his story dark and about how the war negatively affects people, when in reality she became who she wanted to be.
ReplyDeleteO Brian’s incorporation of the story about Mary Anne was to contrast the expectation of a women versus what they are actually capable of. She was proof that a human in general despite could be consumed by war and soldier mentality which is shown through the imagery of her eyes. Her eyes became “utterly flat and I different...no emotion in her stare” (110) from “innocent pretty blue eyes“(96). Everyone has trouble believing Rat because Mary Anne was a female and truly believed she had no place there or have no role in war. Rat warns them about that sexist thinking and tells them not to underestimate women because they are the same. He says, “Seventeen years old.Just a child blond and innocent, but weren't they all?” This threatens a soldier's machismic ego because she proves that women can just as strong or bold as men and can get a job done even more efficiently.
ReplyDelete