In the story “On the Rainy River,” I was particularly interested by Tim’s job at the pig factory. Tim tells the innkeeper Elroy “about wild hogs squealing in [his] dreams, the sound of butchery, slaughterhouse sounds, and how [he’d] sometimes wake up with that greasy pig-stink in [his] throat” (53). The “slaughterhouse sounds” that haunt Tim at night highlight his proximity to death and in the face of Tim’s impending draft into the military, represent the barbaric nature of war--a mass slaughter of soldiers expected to obey without conscious choice that gives as much regard to the value of a soldier’s life as is given to that of a pig. This grotesque slaughterhouse imagery also reflects how the draft sent so many young men--many of whom held the potential to contribute to society in other ways, such as through their intellect--quite literally, like pigs to the slaughter. Yet just as Tim cannot eradicate the stench of slaughtered pigs from his body and hair, soldiers cannot escape the repercussions of their actions in a war. Despite attempts to suppress traumatic memories, the burden of war is one that soldiers may carry forever.
Ilana, I really liked how you connected the burdens of war to your analysis of Tim's job at the pig factory. I agree that O'Brien can use the job at the pig factory in order to create a parallel to the burdens that a war can have on a soldier. In addition to your analysis, the burdens of war can also be depicted from the factory when Tim discusses how to "maneuver the gun with your whole body, not lifting with the arms, just letting the rubber cord do the work for you" (41). Tim's description of his job and how he performs is similar to that of military training. Commanding officers teach the soldiers how to perform properly; in this case, Tim compares his job as "Declotter", to that of a soldier (40). Furthermore, not only the pig stench has trouble escaping Tim's life but also the skills that he acquired within his job, as many soldiers do, that make a permanent impact on his life. This demonstrates how Tim was impacted by the war as his description of life prior to it is manipulated by his experience.
Ilana, I love your analysis of Tim’s job at the pig factory and how the grotesque imagery parallels the manner in which many young people were sent against their will to war and the life and potential that was killed with them. I think that Abbie, you also did a nice job of relating it to another place where Tim’s description of a job parallels to military training. I think another place where grotesque language is used to convey the emotional struggle that Tim is going through is when he had to leave work early because “something [broke] open in [his] chest” (44). He continues to say, “Down in my chest there was still the leaking sensation, something very warm and precious spilling out, and I was covered with blood and hog-stink, and for a long while I just concentrated on holding myself together” (44). The spilling out of blood directly foreshadows and connects to the bloodshed that he could expect if he goes to war. Before he even endures the experience of going to war, the thought alone and the feelings that follow are enough to “cover him with blood”.
I agree, Tim's detailed description of the slaughter factory really stood out to me. Tim's job at the plant, which is "declotter," (40) places him in a assembly line where he has a very specific job that he can execute almost mindlessly, I think this mirrors the behavior of a soldier at war. Every soldier is expected to execute his job without questioning what is being asked of him. It is clear that Tim is sophisticated and questions the purpose and justification for the war in Vietnam (38), which suggests that he will be unable to blindly follow orders in combat, a trait that is substantiated by his experiences in the pork plant. In addition I think his inability to stop smelling of dead pigs parallels both his inability to stop thinking about the war and whether to flee to Canada or to join the military. I agree with Emma in that I also believe that the pork plant serves to foreshadow what war will be like or what Tim believes war will be like: "it was like standing for eight hours a day under a lukewarm blood-shower" (41). This description of the pork plant is one that can be applied to the atrocities of the Vietnam war.
In "The Responsibility of Intellectuals", what struck me most was the authors acceptance of tendencies to avoid self blame. The author discusses many wars, including the Vietnam War, and how the "power of the government's propaganda apparatus is such that the citizen...can hardly hope to confront government pronouncements with fact". Additionally, the author discusses the responsibility of intellectuals to uncover what has been hidden from the public domain; quite ironic due to the fact that they are bringing up the secrets and uncovering that they exist on their own. While many acknowledge "the veil of distortion and misrepresentation...through which the events of current history are presented", they do little do bring the issues to surface. This uncovers the author's point of the article, being that societal populations are unattached to the events that surround them, making it easier to remove blame and thought on the subject as a whole.
I agree with your point that the article’s author, Noam Chomsky, intends to highlight how easy it is for people to be detached from reality when they are unwilling to do the work to uncover the truth and form opinions independent of those around them. However, I also think that one of Noam Chomsky’s central arguments in “The Responsibility of Intellectuals” is the cyclical nature of history--which can be seen in the parallel between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War, both of which were considered by many Americans to be meritless and a drain on resources. Chomsky writes that people only begin to question themselves “as [they] create, or mouth, or tolerate the deceptions that will be used to justify the next defense of freedom.” In this way, we, as Americans, are subconsciously contributing to the abuse of American power all the time by not questioning our government and our values. Anyone has the capacity to be an intellectual according to Chomsky’s definitions, as sheer intelligence is not so much the measure of an intellectual as is the will to seek out one’s own answers and then, with an informed mindset, choose action over idleness to break the cycle.
I also noticed this point that you've highlighted in the article, intellectuals do tend to attempt to remove themselves from horrible events around them. In some ways, it seems that this effort of detachment is veiled by their knowledge. They know so much, and that becomes enough for them as long as they are able to "expose the lies of governments", something that uneducated people can not do; they "can hardly hope to confront government pronouncements with fact". The problem, however, is that intellectuals -- and I relate them to liberals and the moral high-ground we tend to place ourselves on-- can no loger relate to the events around them on a personal level. This connects to our present society for obvious reasons, but in the novel we are able to see the two existing dimensions play out. When O'Brien describes his experience of the Vietnam war while he was in college, he explains that his opposition was "almost entirely an intellectual activity" and that he "felt no personal danger"(39). Tim O'Brein thus represents the intellectual. On the other hand, at the cafe, the men that O'Brien argued against he described as having "simpleminded patriotism" and "prideful ignorance"(43).O'Brien, being the intellectual is able to categorize these people who he may believe to be the non- intellectuals.
The short story, “On the Rainy River,” details Tim O'Brien's experience after finding out about the draft and debating whether he should stay and be drafted or escape to Canada. The story opens with O’Brien saying, “All of us, I suppose, like to believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like the heroes of our youth, bravely, and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss or discredit” (37). At first reading my assumption was that he was referencing a time when at war, but he later reveals that he was talking about the decision whether or not to run away from the war. He describes this moment as “a moral freeze” (54). Through sharing this moment as an emergency where he didn’t act like a “hero,” instead of sharing a time from when he was at war, O’Brien highlights the equally important role, and weight, of the emotional difficulties when going to war.
Emma, I really agree with your claim that O'Brien brings to attention the emotional hardships even before actually going to war. I too assumed that the earlier quote was one about war, and believe that it was O'Brien's intention. By making it seem as though it was a moral emergency he faced in the war, O'Brien not only highlights the role of pre war, but also how it is one that effects the greater population, not just himself, using language like "we will" and "our youth". In the first chapter, the narrator writes of "the emotional baggage of men who might die... they carried the common secret of cowardice barely restrained, the instinct to run or freeze or hide" (20). Here we can see how even once they are in the war, many still "restrain" their cowardice, and feel the need to run away-- something that cannot be changed.
I found it interesting that Noam Chomsky believes that “it is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and expose lies” (Chomsky, 1). Although this seems like a generally good ideal, Chomsky does not take into consideration the machismo of both his time, and the time of the past wars. In this regard, The Things They Carried does a better job at depicting this struggle between truth and societal norms for a man. O’Brien opens the chapter saying “this is one story I’ve never told before… twenty years I’ve had to live with it, feeling the shame… by putting the facts down on paper, I’m hoping to relieve at least some of the pressure on my dreams” (37). An intellectual himself, it still takes O’Brien twenty years to recount a story that exposes a moment where he thought himself weak. In face of being drafter, O’Brien flees, but when he has the opportunity to go to Canada he does not as he is ashamed of what the people back home would think. It is not simply to speak the truth in our time, when men have long been exposed to standards, and fear judgment when revealing “weaknesses”.
Lilith, I completely agree with your claim that a reason intellectuals (specifically men) silence themselves has to do a big part with the idea of “machismo”. For example, another place in the story where this is apparent is at the end when Tim tries to hold back his tears: “I tried to swallow it back. I tried to smile, except I was crying” (56). So, it is very clear that being “macho” and not wanted to be embarrassed nor look weak is a big reason he suppresses his thoughts. However, I feel like another reason he does this is because he just does not want to stand out in society. Tim knows that most people are not knowledgeable on things such as war, that is why he calls them “blind” patriots. Because of this, he feels that if he actually spoke the true, complex, and terrifying facts about the U.S., no one would accept him. For example on page 45 he says, “plain and simple, which was how they liked things” (45). So I feel like in this context another big reason he silences himself is that he knows the general public wouldn’t agree, and he doesn't think that as an intellectual, he has as much power as Chomsky grants people like him.
Excellent job, Lilith! I thought this was a strong piece that used a solid piece of evidence. Also, we argued similar points in our posts so it was useful in building a good argument myself. Although I heavily enjoyed reading both the article and chapter, I felt as though "The Responsibilities of Intellectuals" was more captivating because it highlighted the reality of war. I wondered why the author repeatedly utilized the term, "intellectual", as a noun, because it seemed vague but now, I think it was open to interpretation. I interpreted it as someone who isn't necessarily just book-smart and knows their history, but someone who is willing to dig deep and unravel the mysteries of history. I also agree with your machismo argument and Jason, that quote is very well fitting. It really is sad to think that these men, who already must bottle up so much emotion when they get drafted, feel the need to have to continue to bottle up their feelings, even after their choice.
Lilith, your analysis opened my eyes to another aspect of the story I had not considered as I read it. I criticized O'Brien more than empathized with him in my own analysis, because he had the power to make a statement about a war whose lack of a cause nagged at his very being. I now see that as a young man, O'Brien's said "cowardice" came from a place of machismo-induced shame, rather than merely social embarrassment. The motif of weakness has surfaced before in "The Things They Carried," yet it re-surfaces during O'Brien's own outpouring of emotion on the boat with his beloved Elroy: "All I could do was cry. Quietly, not bawling, just the chest-chokes. At the rear of the boat Elroy pretended not to notice" (54). In what he perceives as courtesy to Tim, Elroy does not acknowledge his companion's sorrow. While a quiet, independent catharsis may have been exactly what was needed, the machismo-induced fear of intimacy is revealed, forcing both men to shy away from any sign of emotionality in fear of how to encounter it.
While I was reading I thought the exact same thing as you Lilith. I think it is a very interesting dynamic in the war aspect, when men are afraid to cry, but somehow now it's okay because it's war or it could possibly be more justifiable. It shows furthermore the male stereotype that is highlighted in this book, as well as it comments on males at war as well. It also shows the influence that males feel from the past, as it was always seen to be extremely strong and brave if you were a man going to war an that those were the toughest men and they would never cry. However, it only goes to prove that if you are a man at war and crying it shows the humane side.
Great analysis, Lilith! I was thinking about similar ideas when I was reading “The Responsibility of Intellectuals.” I think that “On the Rainy River” did a better job of depicting this concept, because within the story the readers had more context. It was easier to understand how one could want to shut themselves off from thinking about war in the book especially because it must have seemed so distant. Also, because of the societal norms placed on men at the time it makes sense to see why so many felt pressured to be “good” citizens. But, on the other hand I think that the article makes good points regarding how we have to consciously think about why our country is doing what it is, and we shouldn't be scared to question these actions (similarly to how Tim questions war in the beginning of this story), rather than blindly following along.
The Responsibility of Intellectuals and On the Rainy River both put intellectuals on a pedestal for knowing things to be unjust, that the rest of the population seems to be uneducated about and cannot form the own opinions on (so they just listen to the United States government). However, one thing I found particularly interesting is that Tim O’Brien also says that a big factor in this is that, people just don’t care to look into the facts. When O’Brien is ranting about him being drafted into the war he says, “I’d sometimes carry on fierce arguments with those people… telling them how much I detested… their simple minded patriotism… how they were sending me off fight a war they didn’t understand and didn't want to understand” (45). While Noam Chomsky thinks the general public is at a disadvantage because they do not have access to knowledge, O’Brien is mad at the general public because he thinks they simply do not care to understand. Ultimately, I agree with the latter because a simple google search on any war in American history is not a difficult task at all, and once you start reading into it, you will see the unjust atrocities the U.S. has caused in other countries. However, no matter what O’Brien has to say, all of his “fierce arguments” are a figment of his imagination, because he does not want to be viewed as a coward.
"On the Rainy River" describes the experience of Tim O'Brien immediately after receiving his draft letter and the moral clash that arises as a result. O'Brien is well educated and does not support an American presence in Vietnam, he feels that he "was too good for this war," (39) and fears the high possibility of death that war brings with it upon receiving his draft notice. O'Brien increasingly contemplates leaving his home town in order to flee to Canada, but simultaneously Tim has great personal pride, he can not bare the thought of being labeled a "sissy" (43) and fears exile. The short story serves to criticize the moral conflict that the draft causes for the young men that it targets, which is corroborated by the fact that Tim O'Brien chose to write about his own personal experience.
Very nice job, Joseph, analyzing a soldiers personal feelings that he has to confront when entering the war and a period of hardship in one’s lifetime. As I was reading, I thought it was a very interesting and important choice for the author to input his very passionate belief about decision making of a nation. The simplicity of his writing, “Once people are dead, you can’t make them undead” (39) makes readers think about the actions of a nation, and their effect and ultimate decisions that can not be reversed. Which makes myself as a reader really question, whether or not the system of drafting an individual into war is fair or not if they do not get to decide if they believe in what they are going to war for. The lives of innocent beings are being put out to represent the nation because they are male and of a certain class, and due to the draft they are also closer to death than every before. This idea of the moral conflict that you consider, I think is very evident throughout this short story and “The Things They Carried,” because within Tim O’ Brien’s very actions of the day he receives the letter explain that his wants do not match with those of the nation. By using the words “feeling the blood go thick behind my eyes” (39) he is having to confront such a large and symbolic visual reminder of “blood” in his eyes that he soon could be accepting as reality when entering the war, and it serves for the reader as a reminder to how the lives of young innocent men can be changed so drastically due to their age and eligibility.
The story of "On the Rainy River" is very unique opposed to "The Things They Carry", in that it tells of a different aspect of the period during the Vietnam War, one that looks at the horrors at home rather than on the battlefield. Both stories focus on the physiological effects of the war and how it forces the soldier to look at life through the lens of a new reality, and that is no further emphasized when the main character is crossing the river from Minnesota: "Traitor! They yelled. Turncoat! Pussy! I felt myself blush. I couldn't tolerate it" (59). Th use of the word "blush" throws the reader back to the first short story, by pulling a common fear of both soldiers showing how the traumas of the war existed on the battlefront and at home.
Jack, this is very strong. I thought it was really interesting how you tied the two short stories together, that is very creative. You talk about the traumas of the battlefront and home, what do you think is more important to the story. I feel as if just as strong a message is sent in both settings because of Ted Lavender's death and the fact that Tim O'Brien was being called a "Pussy" as he was crossing the river. People back home were so concerned with others fighting this war that they forget to really think about the soldiers! Lavender and O’Brien are as human as everyone else yet they both treated as outcasts. Looking solely on O’Brien I feel as if this is a lose lose for him because if he stays home he does what he believes in risking everything, but if he goes to war he, like he said is a coward for not doing in what he believed. Clearly this decision has huge psychological effects on O’Brien as it took him this long to open up about them.
I found that the overlying struggle in " On the Rainy River" epitomizes the line in the short story " The Things They Carried", " They were afraid of dying but they were even more afraid to show it" (19). O'Brien's struggle seems to be finding the line between being a coward and doing what is right. At the end of the short story O'Brien says that he "was a coward" because he " went to the war" (58) and "would not swim away from [his] hometown and [his] country and [his] life", that "he would not be brave" (55).To O'Brien, this was a from of submission as he would agree to fight, submission into a a machismo set of mind needed to fight a war that somehow made him a coward because at the end of the day he was not fighting for what he believed in. The line that most connected to the soldiers fear of not portraying this machismo in the first short story was when O'Brien consented to fighting the war, he " would kill and maybe die--because [he] was embarrassed not to" (57). It is this embarrassment of showing fear and not being a patriot that drives O'Brien's and the soldiers' struggle concerning the war.
"On The Rainy River" tells the story of a young Tim O'Brien, an emotionally ambivalent and scared boy who had just gotten his draft letter. The root of his confliction was his strong belief that the war was unjustified and that America was fighting in a battle it did not belong. After almost fleeing the country for Canada to escape the war's calling, O'Brien decides to go to Vietnam. He says,"I was a coward. I went to the war" (58). This thought creates an oxymoronic effect and forces the reader to question what O'Brien thinks a coward is. One would think that going to the war would be the brave, honorable choice however, O'Brien allows the reader to wonder what about this war makes cowards of the men who choose to partake in it. O'Brien shifts the perspective brilliantly by building up to the suspenseful decision and then adding in this quote to evoke deep questioning from the reader.
In both "The Responsibility of Intellectuals" and "On the Rainy River," the authors comment on the failure of intellectuals to utilize their power in the simple act of forgetting they have any. Noam Chomsky stresses the innate duty of intellectuals to "seek the truth and to expose lies" because they already have the platform to do so. They, unlike many others, will be listened to. In "On the Rainy River," Tim O'Brien exposes himself for his own cowardice, saying "I was a coward. I went to the war" (58). While he already had the leverage to go to Canada in protest of a war without cause or a substantial goal, O'Brien decided to join the troops, afraid of the judgement he would face otherwise. Rather than devote himself to a cause, he prioritizes the security of his status among his peers. In describing his thought process, O'Brien provides context for understanding the millions of other soldiers who were in his same position. Simultaneously, however, he urges the reader to act in the opposite way. Like the wonderful Alice Walker famously said, "The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any."
This is a wonderfully written argument with devoted analysis and insightful comparisons, Clara. The theme of power in both the short story and essay is a fruitful and compelling tie for sure, and the quotes you have pulled solidify this in a way that needs no further comparison. I fully agree with your analysis, and the only thing I would add is the scene in the short story where Tim is confront with figures from the past, present and the metaphorical and how the different symbols there relate to the concept of power. One such example would be the mention of Abraham Lincoln and how he is not only a manifestation of the pressures of patriotism but also he represents conquering a nation divided, or in this case a mind divided.
I agree, Clara. In O'Brien's case, I also think the weight of society's expectations and opinions , as well as his inability to recognize his power, prevented him from abstaining from the draft. For example, towards the beginning of the story, O'Brien writes, "I had taken a modest stand against the war...composing a few tedious, uninspired editorials for the campus newspaper...it was almost an entirely intellectual activity" (41). By using the word "uninspired," O 'Brien hints at the fact that the editorials were nothing radical, and thus tended to fit in with the status quo. Being, as O'Brien later notes, that he was a full-ride scholarship student at Harvard, O'Brien has the ability to make change and make himself heard, but essentially throws away this power with his "tedious" editorials. Although he does recognize his power in the phrase "entirely an intellectual activity: by hinting at his removal from the front lines of war, he refuses to use it, and thus merely floats along the river of society's will.
“On The Rainy River” allows the reader to dive into the life of author Tim O’Brien, as he is forced to make a decision to fight a war he does not believe in or flee to Canada. Like many Americans at the time, O’Brien felt as if we were fighting a war that was not for the U.S.. This war was better off without us. While it is clear that O’Brien did not oppose all wars, there was something about the U.S. sticking there heads into this one, that conflicted him: “I told myself that in such circumstances I would’ve willingly marched off to the battle. The problem, though, was that that a draft did not let you choose your war” (42). O’Brien then makes it clear that this is not his war and that he will not fight it, resulting in the idea that the ones who fight the wars are really the cowards. He even hints at this when he calls himself a coward on page 58. Fighting for your country, which can be looked upon as glamorous is seen as cowardly while staying home is not. To further illustrate Tim O’Brien’s hatred for the Vietnam war he includes his summer at the butchery. He didn’t have to do this, but he did. All the blood and gore is used to foreshadow what happens during the war. To tie this back, O’Brien is trying to say that there is nothing glamorous about dying for something you do not believe in. The war he opposed and now fights in can ultimately lead to a horrific death.
Nick this is a very deep and insightful look at the passage. I believe it is very interesting to look at O’brian’s hesitations about fighting in Vietnam because they are not unique, and applied to a lot of young men who were being drafted to fight in this war. I really like how you delve deeply into the idea of how being drafted to fight in a war can make an individual wary of becoming a part of it. However I disagree that the idea that people fighting in the war are cowards. They are just choosing to fight someone else’s battle for them because they have been chosen to do so. I think when he calls himself a coward on page 58 because despite objecting to the war he bent and went overseas anyways. His cowardice comes not from the actually fighting itself but from his betrayal of his own morals.
In “On the Rainy River,” details Tim O'Brien's experience after finding out about the draft and debating whether he should stay and be drafted or if he should go and escape to Canada. The story opens with O’Brien saying, “All of us, I suppose, like to believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like the heroes of our youth, bravely, and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss or discredit” (39). At first reading my assumption was that he was referencing a time when at war, but he later reveals that he was talking about the decision whether or not to run away from the war. Through sharing this moment as an emergency where he didn’t act like a “hero,” instead of sharing a time from when he was at war, O’Brien highlights the equally important role, and weight, of the emotional difficulties when going to war.
Felix, I completely agree with your claim, however I would like to challenge you further into your analysis. Since O'Brien says “All of us, I suppose, like to believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like the heroes of our youth, bravely, and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss or discredit”(39), do you think that he's only saying this to take the responsibility of deaths off his shoulders? We clearly know that he thinks that "blood was being shed for uncertain reasons. [He] saw no unity of purpose, no consensus on matters of philosophy or history or law"(25). Since he is consciously aware that harming others is wrong, do you believe that he thereby claims him and his peers as "heroes" since he is trying to escape the reality of acknowledging that freewill exists? And by disregarding free will, he is again able to take off responsibility of many deaths? I think this would be an interesting and a more in depth discussion.
Tim O’Brien writes, “On the Rainy River,” which tells the story of being drafted into war. O’Brien opens up fairly quickly in the short story to explain his beliefs and questionings of what a war is and what it means to be at war, which allows for he thought on the actual reasons for going to war. One statement particularly interesting that O’Brien writes is “Knowledge of, course, is always imperfect, but it seemed to me that when a nation goes out to war it must have reasonable confidence in the justice and imperative of its cause” (38-39). He clearly states that all the knowledge that humans are exposed to and believe in is not exactly unreliable but it is questionable. Thus, every human being should be able to have their own opinions and decided their own fate. However, with the decision of the nation to have a draft for war, the rights of a human are terminated, because they ultimately don’t get to decide the future of their own lives. This puts soldiers in to a situation where death is something that they must consider and realize is a possibility in the near future, when approaching a period of war. It is essential that O’Brien decides to include his opinion on the fact the he believes the nation has “confidence in the justice system and imperative of its cause,” because many times nations are highly confident in their system of defense and the expected outcome is not always the actual outcome. Which directly relates to the fact that, if they have enough confidence, then this must imply that the nations believe they are making the right decision, however the nation doesn’t think much about the individual deaths and their lives are being destroyed. Most importantly, the people fighting do not even get to input their perception of how the issue being fought should be handled.
In, “On the Rainy River” Tim O’Brien gives the reader a unique view into the head of a young man who has just been drafted to participate in a war he protested in college and morally objects to. When drafted O’Brien tries to flee to Canada but before he does he second guesses his action and decides against it, “Right then, with the shore so close, I understood that I would not do what I should do. I would not swim away from my hometown and my country and my life. I would not be brave,” (55). Ironically this quote is O’Brien’s way of saying he will go to Vietnam. By saying this and describing it as not brave it exposes the idea that O’Brien views fighting in a war you don’t believe in to be more cowardice than running away from a war you were drafted to fight in. This is indicative of the second guessing done by soldiers of the time. In the first chapter the reader sees how the soldiers in Vietnam do not really understand why they are there so they distract themselves from their reality to keep themselves from realizing they are fighting a pointless war.
In “On the Rainy River,” Tim O'Brien comes off as a hypocrite and a selfish individual based off of his perception of morality. While O'Brien says "I was drafted to fight a war I hated. I was twenty-one years old. Young, yes, and politically naive, but even so the American war in Vietnam seemed to me wrong. Certain blood was being shed for uncertain reasons. I saw no unity of purpose, no consensus on matters of philosophy or history or law"(25). Clearly, O'Brien believes that killing is against the will of the human nature, therefore being immoral philosophically. On the other hand, when he talks about himself, he says "I was too good for this war. Too smart, too compassionate, too everything. It couldn't happen. I was above it"(26). Since on one hand Tim thinks war is immoral, he does however distinguish himself as special, therefore too good for the war. Also, he is suggesting that there are people who are not good enough to be outside of the war, since he is. Since his message can be interpreted this way, it's clear that he is a hypocrite because he believes it is immoral to kill, while he justifies morally the thought of people being killed in place of him. On the other hand, he is also escaping reality because he mentions that he hated the war and he mentions his age to prove his innocence. However, he is not innocent because he is selfish and a hypocrite by his words on morality. Therefore by suggesting he is innocent and shouldn't be blamed, he subconsciously tries to believe that free will does not exist for him in war, thus taking the responsibility of deaths off of his shoulders.
In “On the Rainy River” I was interested in Tim’s struggle of whether or not to go to war since his decision was heavily based on his fear of judgment from others. When Tim was on the boat with Elroy, he realizes that he couldn’t take action against his situation by jumping out of the boat because of everyone who was watching him: “All those eyes on me- the town, the whole universe – and I couldn’t risk the embarrassment. It was as if there was an audience to my life…I couldn’t endure the mockery, or the disgrace, or the patriotic ridicule” (59). Tim really cares about how those around him will judge him based on his actions and really fears the possibility of being rejected by everyone if decides to run away. The pressure to ultimately make the decision he feels the rest of the universe wants him to make—join the war—is high and I find it interesting that this is exactly what finally causes him to make his decision. His submission to the war is based on his fear of what others may think of him and the embarrassment he may endure by “cowering” away. It shows how we at times hold the judgement of others, in certain situations, higher than our own judgement of the situation and, in the end, the pressure of conforming to what others think could prove too strong and cause us to completely disregard how we may feel.
Lesley, I completely agree with your claim. This is exactly why I think O’Brien called himself a coward for going to war at the end of the short story. He’s too concern about what those around him might say that, “in [his] head [he] could hear people screaming at [him]. Traitor! They yelled. Turncoat! Pussy!” (57). Him worrying so much about what everyone think not only causes him to choose to do something he didn’t want to but it's also the reason why it's so hard for him to tell this story even after many years because it reveal something that could make everyone think of him as a coward. I also liked how you connect O’Brien’s situation to situations we often go through. I definitely agree that we constantly hold the judgements of other higher than our own judgement.
I found it interesting how O'Brien thinks that going to the war makes him a coward You would think that going to the war would make one brave and honorable. After reading "On The Rainy River" I thought about what he probably meant by that. I thought about the fact that he made it very clear that he didn’t want to go to war for reasons like he felt he “Was too good for this war”, and overall he felt that a war in Vietnam seemed wrong (39). O’Brien ends the short story by saying, “I was a coward. I went to the war” (58) Although he made it clear he didn't want to go to war he still ends up going ultimately making him a coward for not staying firm to what he actually wanted. Moreover, It goes back to the idea of machismo. He went to war because he didn’t want people to see him as a coward however, the fact that he did go to war considering he didn’t want to make him a coward, not to the people but definitely to himself.
I agree with you Cristal, in the beginning of the chapter, he looks at himself like a hero and this story like a great and heroic event. “Certainty that was my conviction back in the summer of 1968. Tim O’Brien: a secret hero. The Lone Ranger… Courage, I seemed to think comes to us in finite quantities, like an inheritance, and by being frugal and stashing it away and letting it earn interest, we steadily increase our moral capital in preparation for that day when the account must be drawn down.”(37-38) This explains how Tim O’Brien claims to have many heroic actions and secrets hidden away and only wants us the audience/readers to have the desires to find out what occurred during those events but him not revealing them. Later on during the chapter the courageous tone changed to a sad and grieving tone, as Tim O’Brien looks at the reality of the many situations he had encountered.
I agree with you Cristal and i love the way you connected it back to machismo in that social expectations pressured young men into valuing the county more than themselves. The idea of heroism is one very important to this chapter because here he demonstrate the confusion and the layer of what a hero is. We tend to like to think we will be brave in the face of danger but in this chapter we see how detrimental it actually is. What it means to be a man-- also connecting this back to Oscar-- is having no emotion and I feel this apathy for men shows the social standards men are suppose to meet. This war draft uncovered the vulnerability within men and put them in the test for being a true man. We also have to consider the battle they have with themselves, whether to be a coward in the eyes of others or in their own eyes, which is very important that he tackles this because it shows the fear that is not shown clearly in the first chapter, "The Things They Carried."
In his story "On the Rainy River," Tim O'Brien juxtaposes society's perceptions of what cowardice consists of with O'Brien's own notions about cowardice in order to illustrate how morality is warped by American culture. Right at the start of the story, O'Brien writes, "[a]ll of us...like to believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like the heroes of our youth, bravely and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss" (39). By choosing to use the phrase "like to believe" instead of simply "believe," O'Brien highlights how society places a favorable light on the classic "hero" archetype, and thus grants individuals the difficult task of living up to this archetype. No matter how hard one may try to become a hero, it will ultimately be unattainable. In his own perceptions of cowardice, however, O'Brien turns the tables. He writes, "I would go to the war--I would kill and maybe die--because I was embarrassed not to...I was a coward. I went to war" (60-61). Society's classic reaction of O'Brien's choice to go to war would be to label him brave--a hero--when in actuality, he is merely going ti war out of cowardice. O'Brien's fear of being called weak is what ultimately results in his choice to go to war, and thus he answers his draft out of fear, not honor. By juxtaposing the classic "war hero" perception with that of the main character's, O'Brien highlights the problems within a societal mindset: it, essentially, warps the moral compass.
In the story “On The Rainy River” by Tim O'Brien, I found it ironic how Tim views himself based on his job. He thinks that he's “too smart, too compassionate, too everything” to be drafted into the war (41). After he finds out about this, the author jumps to his job in a meatpacking factory. I thought it was interesting how he works for “eight hours a day...on a quarter mile assembly line” with many other workers, that do the same job as him and most likely come from a similar background (42) . To me this illustrated how everyone else that didn't have a choice but to fight in the war must have felt similar to Tim. Because the war seemed so distant and separated from their lives, it would make sense that no one would expect to be drafted. They only had to think about the war when they knew they'd have to join it.
Very well said Rene, it did intrigue me at first as to how fighting a war would account as an act of cowardice instead of bravery or something that brings honor. I am reminded of how O' Brien was completely against the war and was in fact, scared. He didn't want to lose his life. He felt war was not a place for well read persons like him. I feel he calls himself a coward for going to the war because he didn't stick to his believes and acted against what his heart felt was right. He felt that if he didn't go for the war, people would consider him to be coward. Although he realizes after the war that he would have been braver -- not for other people but for his own self-- had he stood by his own beliefs and not succumb to what people feel about his actions.
The short story, “On the Rainy River” gives us the perspective of Tim, a young intellectual man who is drafted but is against the war. The story begins with Tim O'Brien telling us that he hasn’t been shared this story with his family because, “to go into it, I’ve always thought, would only cause embarrassment for all of us” (37). Knowing that Tim has fought in the Vietnam War, I assumed that his embarrassment would be his attempt to escape the draft. Although this is what he tries to do, his embarrassment is only in his failure to go through with it. Tim then says that he sees the men who go to war as “cowards” because they were too embarrassed not to fight. This juxtaposes the views of the soldiers from the story, “The Things they Carried” because their definition of cowards were, “guys who had found release by shooting off their own toes or fingers. Pussies, they’d say” (21). These opposing views lead to Tim's break down in the pig factory because there is opposition of the War from Americans yet there is still a pressure to fight for national pride.
Well said Az. I find your point on Tim considering himself as a coward as very interesting. I agree that he feels that the embarrassment he feels revolves around on his failure to escape to Canada. I think that Tim following these expectations to fight for national pride, is ultimately is what he is embarrassed about. He considers himself “a coward” and says that “it was not a happy ending” because of his regret of going to war (61). I agree on your point that this can be connected back to “The Things they Carried” since many of the soldiers at war seem to have this feeling of regret as well. I think that his fear of detaching himself from his old life and emotions, are well reflected in Lieutenant Cross. The part where he envisions a public watching him choose his decision to go to Canada or go to war reflects this pressure in fighting for national pride.
The story of Tim O'brien before being drafted to war in "On the Rainy River" acknowledges the social expectations of men servicing our country despite their approval or feelings on the matter. This chapter is meant to demonstrate the confusion of what young drafted experienced when the demands of the country and community conflicted with their fear. Something I found interesting was the fact of shame forced on the men if they did not show courage. Men were suppose to put their feelings aside-- without processing the horrors-- just simply act. Almost like machines men are to fight with the pressure of society cracking down on them creating an inferiority complex within them if they do not go: "He would kill and maybe die--because [he] was embarrassed not to" (57). O’Brien is trapped by his own morals, if he goes to war he would be disappointing himself and if he does not go he will be looked down upon by his family and community. His journey to the Canadian border and meeting Elroy compels him into action for the realization of runaway and not making a decision by stepping other grounds IS a huge decision.
Daniel, I love the fact that you contrast O’Brien’s morals and desires with the desires of those around him. It is kind of similar to the cultural expectations that we saw Oscar struggling with in Junot Diaz’s novel. I also like how you acknowledge Elroy’s playing a role in O’Brien’s decision to go to war and I completely agree. Perhaps this conflict of Tim’s morals and his family’s expectations can relate back to the “weight” of these intangible feelings. You say that O’Brien is “trapped by his own morals” and I feel like that statement is particularly evident and solidified when O’Brien describes the feelings he has after receiving his letter. While describing how he feels at work, he says, “The emotions went from outrage to terror to bewilderment to guilt to sorrow and then back again to outrage. I felt a sickness inside me. Real disease” (43). He also says, “I felt something break inside my chest. I don’t know what it was. Ill never know. But it was real” (44). These overwhelming feelings and emotions are so conflicting that they take a physical toll on O’Brien and this is what causes him to feel literally “trapped” by the weight of it all.
Daniel, I agree totally! I wrote about a similar subject. In the beginning of the story, O'Brian' highlights the importance of being a hero and saving the day oppose to saving individual dreams. "We all, I suppose, believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like heroes in our youth, bravely and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss or discredit" (39). He is torn between his selfishness in rejecting change and doing what the majority declares is right for the country. His fear of this decision consumes him and eats away at his self conscious because of the pressure put on young men. I definitely agree that he feels "trapped" by the responsibility. Also I feel like he genuinely would want to fight worth fighting for, with a cause instead of one he does not understand. He needs a reason to fight, something more than because it's what he is expected to do. The war seemed illogical and foreign to O'Brien and this perpetuates his feeling of uncertainty which wrecked his mind.
Daniel, I agree with your connection to social expectations of men, because at this time not only was it a social expectation of men to go to war, it was a decision where they had no choice. Forcing the men to fight a war that many, especially the narrator, did not want to take part of, a war that had no “purpose” or “certainty” (38) to them either. As wars are something expected of men to fight, it leaves men in a difficult condition, where they are unable to express their emotions over it. I especially like your idea that feelings had to be put aside to allow for actions, and that personally OBrien was trapped by his own morals. We can see this in the beginning of the chapter where OBrien says that speaking about his experiences to his family “would only cause embarrassment” (37). Not only are men drafted with no choice but they are not allowed an outlet to vent to, in fear of seeming less of a man.
In the story "On The Rainy River" the author Tim O' Brien, starts off by saying "Even now, I'll admit, the story makes me squirm. For more than twenty years I've had to live with it, feeling the shame, trying to push it away". The reader tends to believe, in the beginning, that O' Brien is ashamed of himself and this part of his life as he almost tried to runaway from the war, fleeing to Canada. It is only in the end that the reader realizes that he is actually ashamed because he goes to the war because of what people would think about him. Whenever he travels back to this phase of his life he is filled with remorse as he went to the war out of shame. "All the eyes on me—the town, the whole universe—and I couldn't risk the embarrassment. I felt myself blush. I couldn't tolerate it." He didn't want to put his reputation on line by not going to the war but in the end not siding with his heart soils his image in his own eyes.
In the short story “On the Rainy River,” Tim O’Brien allows the reader to experience the mindset of a young ordinary man who had been drafted into war. After receiving the letter, Tim decides that his only two options would to accept the result of the draft or flee to Canada. O’Brien ultimately struggles in deciding whether his own personal opinion is more important than his reputation as an American citizen: “All those eyes on me—the town, the whole universe—and I couldn’t risk the embarrassment. It was as if there were an audience to my life…I could hear people screaming at me. ‘Traitor!’ They yelled. Turncoat! Pussy!” (59). O’Brian alludes to the pressure of patriotism, and the result of living up to these patriotic ideals. He finds it unfair that he must be subjected to war, despite him hating the entire motives behind the war he was drafted into. His mixed emotions can be compared to the same emotions the Lieutenant Cross felt during the war. Both O’Brien and Cross, reflect this desire to keep hold of their reality before war, causing O’Brien to admit that he “was a coward” because he chose to go to war (61).
I completely agree with your argument Clarence and like how you specify the "only two options" Tim had. I like how you connected this story to "The Things they Carried" and Lieutenant Cross. I also really like your evidence and the pressure of patriotism, I would also add how Tim doesn't even open up to his family but instead runs away because it further demonstrates his opposition to the war and his fear of death. I also think that when talking of the connection of Tim and Cross, you should include their regrets (not going to Canada and letting Ted Lavender die) and how it affects them in similar ways. I think that the comparisons of Tim and Cross can go further because both have a hope that they use to escape war (Martha and Canada) but for both they are unreachable/unattainable. Overall, I like the points you address and your connections of the characters from the two readings.
In “On the Rainy River”, I was particularly interested in how O’Brien makes one small reference to things that Elroy carries with him, yet how significantly these objects that he carries really sums up his personality. When describing these objects, O’Brien says, “In one hand, I remember, he carried a green apple, a small paring knife in the other” (46). Later on, when trying to sum up and emphasize Elroy’s intellectuality, O’Brien says, “The man was sharp—he didn’t miss much” (47). The first object that O’Brien brings to the reader’s attention is the knife, and this knife represents his knowledge and “sharpness”. Although Tim doesn’t tell Elroy anything about the situation he is in, Elroy knows and it is implied that this is because he is sharp as a knife. He can understand a situation without a word and this object that he carries perfectly represents this. The second object, an apple, could perhaps be correlated with a teacher figure, as teachers are commonly associated with apples. Although Tim doesn’t take Elroy’s sort of encouragement to get on with this new life that he has planned, Tim refers to Elroy as, “the hero” of his life, and the one who “saved” him (45 & 46). Elroy’s actions played a significant role in influencing Tim’s actions-- his silence, their activities together—and as a teacher helps to lead their students, Elroy ultimately plays a role in leading Tim to making this major decision to go to war, whether it be a good decision, or a bad one.
I find interesting what Chomsky says near the end of the article, almost as an aside: "it makes little difference to us what form of government a country has so long as it remains an 'open society'...that is, a society that remains open to American economic penetration or political control." Considering the fact that he says intellectuals have a responsibility to seek the truth, I find it interesting that no one questions this in particular. Chomsky quotes Henry Kissinger to say that American politicians' motives seem to be above scrutiny in general, and that has changed to some extent, but for the most part Americans do not really question why we intervene some places but not others. We speculate briefly, but then the speculation almost invariably turns into the regular inane political arguments and insults we are constantly inundated with. On the other hand, while I would argue that we should do so more, we are questioning the motives of our elected officials, even nonintellectuals.
What I found interesting in “On the Rainy River” was O’Brien’s very own self evaluation which questioned his moral compass which may have threatened his machismo. In his town he is expected by everyone including his family to accept the draft and not run away because it is seemed as “cowardly” but that decision and reasoning is not totally black and white. Crying is considered as weakness: “It's not just the embarrassment of tears. Thats part of it no doubt, but what emabarasses me much more, and always will, is the paralysis that took my heart. A moral freeze: I couldn't decide, I couldn't act, I couldn't comport myself with even a pretense of modest human dignity” (57). The draft has triggered him to question his identity and what he believes in and what is right.He barely understands who he is and he cannot fathom a transition from a simple life to possibly losing that very same life on the battlefield. He also questions his hypothetical role in the war and the wars purpose, of which he cannot answer. War is a mental fight as well as a physical one because it makes the soldiers question their humanity and priorities. “My whole life seemed to spill out onto the river,swirling away from me, everything I had ever been or ever wanted to be” (58) The river metaphorically stands for the crossroad he's conflicted in and forced to make a bold choice or the one seen as the “bolder” choice, being ready and accepting the draft. Also his drowning represents how the war is swallowing him whole emptying him of his dreams of a normal life and condemning him to a miserable one: the life of a soldier.
Tim O’Brien is confident and proud about his service during the earlier part of this chapter but then explains his hate and sadness for being drafted to the army. “The draft notice arrived on June 17, 1968. It was a humid afternoon, I remember, cloudy and very quiet, and I’d just come in from a round of golf. My mother and father were having lunch out in the kitchen. I remember opening up the letter, scanning the first few lines, feeling the blood go thick behind my eyes. I remember a sound in my head. It wasn’t thinking, just a silent howl. A million things all at once – I was too good for this war. Too smart, too compassionate, too everything. It couldn’t happen. I was above it.” (39) Tim O’Brien think he is too smart and too above to go to war, but I believed we talked about it in class that if he was in college, he wouldn’t be drafted to the war. Question: Do you think Tim O’Brien regrets having been drafted to the army?
Its interesting that you touched upon his thinking: "Am I too good to go to war"?. In response to that thinking, I believe everyone is too good to die. Going to war can be hard on each individual drafted, despite their belief or level of confidence entering the war. Upon finding out, this character appears to be wondering "why me? Ive done nothing wrong, Im smart, Im nice..". Yet bad things happen to good people. What seperates people in these moments is how they handle the obstacles that confront them. However, the narrator also mentions why he must fight in a war that he does not support; why not send someone who is more willing to fight than I? This is an interesting comment by him, and it does make me wonder if it should be okay to inflict a draft if theres a significant amount of the population who dont support the war. If a huge portion of the country dont support the war then there shouldnt be a draft.
In Tim Obrien's chapter "On The Rainy River", the author explores the difference between courage and cowardice. For instance, the narrator- upon hearing that he is drafted and headed to war- decides to drive away from his fate: "I drove north...and all I remember is velocity and the feel of steering wheel in my hands. I was riding on adrenaline...I had no plan. Just hit the border at high speed and crash through and keep running" (45). In order to run away, the character abandons his family, leaves behind the town hes only know, his full ride to Harvard, and his job. Some could argue that by leaving behind everything familiar to you takes a certain amount of courage. However, the narrator ran away to flee the mandatory draft he's been selected by. By avoiding his draft to the war, he is considered a coward by others. On the other hand, he flees from the war partly because he does not believe in the war; sticking to one's beliefs take courage. Yet, a fear of what other people think of him also drive his decisions- a form of cowardice. Hence, is the narrators choice to run away make him a coward or courageous?
In the beginning of the chapter On the Rainy River, the narrator gives us a view of the war that is many times only experienced by the soldiers; a story that even the narrator says “[he has] never told before” (37). The fact that this story is finally being told to an audience is almost like a confession, similar to how Noam Chomsky argues that “it is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak truth and to expose lies” (Chomsky 1). This brings up the interesting view of the reality of war including the morality of it. Both O’Brien and Chomsky question the credibility of war, and whether the end goal is worth the pain of the fight: “Certain blood was being shed for uncertain reasons” (38), this reason unknown to the young soldier who was forced to fight, but known by Chomsky to be ensuring that countries “remain open to American economic penetration or political control” (Chomsky 3). The motives of a war are something that remain unknown to all. While soldiers may view glimpses of the reality of the war through the atrocities they witness and experience, they never really know the meaning. The people back at home remain even more blind to the truth as their government tells them nothing and neither do the soldiers.
ReplyDeleteIn the story “On the Rainy River,” I was particularly interested by Tim’s job at the pig factory. Tim tells the innkeeper Elroy “about wild hogs squealing in [his] dreams, the sound of butchery, slaughterhouse sounds, and how [he’d] sometimes wake up with that greasy pig-stink in [his] throat” (53). The “slaughterhouse sounds” that haunt Tim at night highlight his proximity to death and in the face of Tim’s impending draft into the military, represent the barbaric nature of war--a mass slaughter of soldiers expected to obey without conscious choice that gives as much regard to the value of a soldier’s life as is given to that of a pig. This grotesque slaughterhouse imagery also reflects how the draft sent so many young men--many of whom held the potential to contribute to society in other ways, such as through their intellect--quite literally, like pigs to the slaughter. Yet just as Tim cannot eradicate the stench of slaughtered pigs from his body and hair, soldiers cannot escape the repercussions of their actions in a war. Despite attempts to suppress traumatic memories, the burden of war is one that soldiers may carry forever.
Ilana, I really liked how you connected the burdens of war to your analysis of Tim's job at the pig factory. I agree that O'Brien can use the job at the pig factory in order to create a parallel to the burdens that a war can have on a soldier. In addition to your analysis, the burdens of war can also be depicted from the factory when Tim discusses how to "maneuver the gun with your whole body, not lifting with the arms, just letting the rubber cord do the work for you" (41). Tim's description of his job and how he performs is similar to that of military training. Commanding officers teach the soldiers how to perform properly; in this case, Tim compares his job as "Declotter", to that of a soldier (40). Furthermore, not only the pig stench has trouble escaping Tim's life but also the skills that he acquired within his job, as many soldiers do, that make a permanent impact on his life. This demonstrates how Tim was impacted by the war as his description of life prior to it is manipulated by his experience.
DeleteIlana, I love your analysis of Tim’s job at the pig factory and how the grotesque imagery parallels the manner in which many young people were sent against their will to war and the life and potential that was killed with them. I think that Abbie, you also did a nice job of relating it to another place where Tim’s description of a job parallels to military training. I think another place where grotesque language is used to convey the emotional struggle that Tim is going through is when he had to leave work early because “something [broke] open in [his] chest” (44). He continues to say, “Down in my chest there was still the leaking sensation, something very warm and precious spilling out, and I was covered with blood and hog-stink, and for a long while I just concentrated on holding myself together” (44). The spilling out of blood directly foreshadows and connects to the bloodshed that he could expect if he goes to war. Before he even endures the experience of going to war, the thought alone and the feelings that follow are enough to “cover him with blood”.
DeleteI agree, Tim's detailed description of the slaughter factory really stood out to me. Tim's job at the plant, which is "declotter," (40) places him in a assembly line where he has a very specific job that he can execute almost mindlessly, I think this mirrors the behavior of a soldier at war. Every soldier is expected to execute his job without questioning what is being asked of him. It is clear that Tim is sophisticated and questions the purpose and justification for the war in Vietnam (38), which suggests that he will be unable to blindly follow orders in combat, a trait that is substantiated by his experiences in the pork plant. In addition I think his inability to stop smelling of dead pigs parallels both his inability to stop thinking about the war and whether to flee to Canada or to join the military. I agree with Emma in that I also believe that the pork plant serves to foreshadow what war will be like or what Tim believes war will be like: "it was like standing for eight hours a day under a lukewarm blood-shower" (41). This description of the pork plant is one that can be applied to the atrocities of the Vietnam war.
DeleteIn "The Responsibility of Intellectuals", what struck me most was the authors acceptance of tendencies to avoid self blame. The author discusses many wars, including the Vietnam War, and how the "power of the government's propaganda apparatus is such that the citizen...can hardly hope to confront government pronouncements with fact". Additionally, the author discusses the responsibility of intellectuals to uncover what has been hidden from the public domain; quite ironic due to the fact that they are bringing up the secrets and uncovering that they exist on their own. While many acknowledge "the veil of distortion and misrepresentation...through which the events of current history are presented", they do little do bring the issues to surface. This uncovers the author's point of the article, being that societal populations are unattached to the events that surround them, making it easier to remove blame and thought on the subject as a whole.
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DeleteI agree with your point that the article’s author, Noam Chomsky, intends to highlight how easy it is for people to be detached from reality when they are unwilling to do the work to uncover the truth and form opinions independent of those around them. However, I also think that one of Noam Chomsky’s central arguments in “The Responsibility of Intellectuals” is the cyclical nature of history--which can be seen in the parallel between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War, both of which were considered by many Americans to be meritless and a drain on resources. Chomsky writes that people only begin to question themselves “as [they] create, or mouth, or tolerate the deceptions that will be used to justify the next defense of freedom.” In this way, we, as Americans, are subconsciously contributing to the abuse of American power all the time by not questioning our government and our values. Anyone has the capacity to be an intellectual according to Chomsky’s definitions, as sheer intelligence is not so much the measure of an intellectual as is the will to seek out one’s own answers and then, with an informed mindset, choose action over idleness to break the cycle.
DeleteI also noticed this point that you've highlighted in the article, intellectuals do tend to attempt to remove themselves from horrible events around them. In some ways, it seems that this effort of detachment is veiled by their knowledge. They know so much, and that becomes enough for them as long as they are able to "expose the lies of governments", something that uneducated people can not do; they "can hardly hope to confront government pronouncements with fact". The problem, however, is that intellectuals -- and I relate them to liberals and the moral high-ground we tend to place ourselves on-- can no loger relate to the events around them on a personal level. This connects to our present society for obvious reasons, but in the novel we are able to see the two existing dimensions play out. When O'Brien describes his experience of the Vietnam war while he was in college, he explains that his opposition was "almost entirely an intellectual activity" and that he "felt no personal danger"(39). Tim O'Brein thus represents the intellectual. On the other hand, at the cafe, the men that O'Brien argued against he described as having "simpleminded patriotism" and "prideful ignorance"(43).O'Brien, being the intellectual is able to categorize these people who he may believe to be the non- intellectuals.
DeleteThe short story, “On the Rainy River,” details Tim O'Brien's experience after finding out about the draft and debating whether he should stay and be drafted or escape to Canada. The story opens with O’Brien saying, “All of us, I suppose, like to believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like the heroes of our youth, bravely, and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss or discredit” (37). At first reading my assumption was that he was referencing a time when at war, but he later reveals that he was talking about the decision whether or not to run away from the war. He describes this moment as “a moral freeze” (54). Through sharing this moment as an emergency where he didn’t act like a “hero,” instead of sharing a time from when he was at war, O’Brien highlights the equally important role, and weight, of the emotional difficulties when going to war.
ReplyDeleteEmma, I really agree with your claim that O'Brien brings to attention the emotional hardships even before actually going to war. I too assumed that the earlier quote was one about war, and believe that it was O'Brien's intention. By making it seem as though it was a moral emergency he faced in the war, O'Brien not only highlights the role of pre war, but also how it is one that effects the greater population, not just himself, using language like "we will" and "our youth". In the first chapter, the narrator writes of "the emotional baggage of men who might die... they carried the common secret of cowardice barely restrained, the instinct to run or freeze or hide" (20). Here we can see how even once they are in the war, many still "restrain" their cowardice, and feel the need to run away-- something that cannot be changed.
DeleteI found it interesting that Noam Chomsky believes that “it is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and expose lies” (Chomsky, 1). Although this seems like a generally good ideal, Chomsky does not take into consideration the machismo of both his time, and the time of the past wars. In this regard, The Things They Carried does a better job at depicting this struggle between truth and societal norms for a man. O’Brien opens the chapter saying “this is one story I’ve never told before… twenty years I’ve had to live with it, feeling the shame… by putting the facts down on paper, I’m hoping to relieve at least some of the pressure on my dreams” (37). An intellectual himself, it still takes O’Brien twenty years to recount a story that exposes a moment where he thought himself weak. In face of being drafter, O’Brien flees, but when he has the opportunity to go to Canada he does not as he is ashamed of what the people back home would think. It is not simply to speak the truth in our time, when men have long been exposed to standards, and fear judgment when revealing “weaknesses”.
ReplyDeleteLilith, I completely agree with your claim that a reason intellectuals (specifically men) silence themselves has to do a big part with the idea of “machismo”. For example, another place in the story where this is apparent is at the end when Tim tries to hold back his tears: “I tried to swallow it back. I tried to smile, except I was crying” (56). So, it is very clear that being “macho” and not wanted to be embarrassed nor look weak is a big reason he suppresses his thoughts. However, I feel like another reason he does this is because he just does not want to stand out in society. Tim knows that most people are not knowledgeable on things such as war, that is why he calls them “blind” patriots. Because of this, he feels that if he actually spoke the true, complex, and terrifying facts about the U.S., no one would accept him. For example on page 45 he says, “plain and simple, which was how they liked things” (45). So I feel like in this context another big reason he silences himself is that he knows the general public wouldn’t agree, and he doesn't think that as an intellectual, he has as much power as Chomsky grants people like him.
DeleteExcellent job, Lilith! I thought this was a strong piece that used a solid piece of evidence. Also, we argued similar points in our posts so it was useful in building a good argument myself. Although I heavily enjoyed reading both the article and chapter, I felt as though "The Responsibilities of Intellectuals" was more captivating because it highlighted the reality of war. I wondered why the author repeatedly utilized the term, "intellectual", as a noun, because it seemed vague but now, I think it was open to interpretation. I interpreted it as someone who isn't necessarily just book-smart and knows their history, but someone who is willing to dig deep and unravel the mysteries of history. I also agree with your machismo argument and Jason, that quote is very well fitting. It really is sad to think that these men, who already must bottle up so much emotion when they get drafted, feel the need to have to continue to bottle up their feelings, even after their choice.
DeleteLilith, your analysis opened my eyes to another aspect of the story I had not considered as I read it. I criticized O'Brien more than empathized with him in my own analysis, because he had the power to make a statement about a war whose lack of a cause nagged at his very being. I now see that as a young man, O'Brien's said "cowardice" came from a place of machismo-induced shame, rather than merely social embarrassment. The motif of weakness has surfaced before in "The Things They Carried," yet it re-surfaces during O'Brien's own outpouring of emotion on the boat with his beloved Elroy: "All I could do was cry. Quietly, not bawling, just the chest-chokes. At the rear of the boat Elroy pretended not to notice" (54). In what he perceives as courtesy to Tim, Elroy does not acknowledge his companion's sorrow. While a quiet, independent catharsis may have been exactly what was needed, the machismo-induced fear of intimacy is revealed, forcing both men to shy away from any sign of emotionality in fear of how to encounter it.
DeleteWhile I was reading I thought the exact same thing as you Lilith. I think it is a very interesting dynamic in the war aspect, when men are afraid to cry, but somehow now it's okay because it's war or it could possibly be more justifiable. It shows furthermore the male stereotype that is highlighted in this book, as well as it comments on males at war as well. It also shows the influence that males feel from the past, as it was always seen to be extremely strong and brave if you were a man going to war an that those were the toughest men and they would never cry. However, it only goes to prove that if you are a man at war and crying it shows the humane side.
DeleteGreat analysis, Lilith! I was thinking about similar ideas when I was reading “The Responsibility of Intellectuals.” I think that “On the Rainy River” did a better job of depicting this concept, because within the story the readers had more context. It was easier to understand how one could want to shut themselves off from thinking about war in the book especially because it must have seemed so distant. Also, because of the societal norms placed on men at the time it makes sense to see why so many felt pressured to be “good” citizens. But, on the other hand I think that the article makes good points regarding how we have to consciously think about why our country is doing what it is, and we shouldn't be scared to question these actions (similarly to how Tim questions war in the beginning of this story), rather than blindly following along.
DeleteThe Responsibility of Intellectuals and On the Rainy River both put intellectuals on a pedestal for knowing things to be unjust, that the rest of the population seems to be uneducated about and cannot form the own opinions on (so they just listen to the United States government). However, one thing I found particularly interesting is that Tim O’Brien also says that a big factor in this is that, people just don’t care to look into the facts. When O’Brien is ranting about him being drafted into the war he says, “I’d sometimes carry on fierce arguments with those people… telling them how much I detested… their simple minded patriotism… how they were sending me off fight a war they didn’t understand and didn't want to understand” (45). While Noam Chomsky thinks the general public is at a disadvantage because they do not have access to knowledge, O’Brien is mad at the general public because he thinks they simply do not care to understand. Ultimately, I agree with the latter because a simple google search on any war in American history is not a difficult task at all, and once you start reading into it, you will see the unjust atrocities the U.S. has caused in other countries. However, no matter what O’Brien has to say, all of his “fierce arguments” are a figment of his imagination, because he does not want to be viewed as a coward.
ReplyDelete"On the Rainy River" describes the experience of Tim O'Brien immediately after receiving his draft letter and the moral clash that arises as a result. O'Brien is well educated and does not support an American presence in Vietnam, he feels that he "was too good for this war," (39) and fears the high possibility of death that war brings with it upon receiving his draft notice. O'Brien increasingly contemplates leaving his home town in order to flee to Canada, but simultaneously Tim has great personal pride, he can not bare the thought of being labeled a "sissy" (43) and fears exile. The short story serves to criticize the moral conflict that the draft causes for the young men that it targets, which is corroborated by the fact that Tim O'Brien chose to write about his own personal experience.
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DeleteVery nice job, Joseph, analyzing a soldiers personal feelings that he has to confront when entering the war and a period of hardship in one’s lifetime. As I was reading, I thought it was a very interesting and important choice for the author to input his very passionate belief about decision making of a nation. The simplicity of his writing, “Once people are dead, you can’t make them undead” (39) makes readers think about the actions of a nation, and their effect and ultimate decisions that can not be reversed. Which makes myself as a reader really question, whether or not the system of drafting an individual into war is fair or not if they do not get to decide if they believe in what they are going to war for. The lives of innocent beings are being put out to represent the nation because they are male and of a certain class, and due to the draft they are also closer to death than every before. This idea of the moral conflict that you consider, I think is very evident throughout this short story and “The Things They Carried,” because within Tim O’ Brien’s very actions of the day he receives the letter explain that his wants do not match with those of the nation. By using the words “feeling the blood go thick behind my eyes” (39) he is having to confront such a large and symbolic visual reminder of “blood” in his eyes that he soon could be accepting as reality when entering the war, and it serves for the reader as a reminder to how the lives of young innocent men can be changed so drastically due to their age and eligibility.
The story of "On the Rainy River" is very unique opposed to "The Things They Carry", in that it tells of a different aspect of the period during the Vietnam War, one that looks at the horrors at home rather than on the battlefield. Both stories focus on the physiological effects of the war and how it forces the soldier to look at life through the lens of a new reality, and that is no further emphasized when the main character is crossing the river from Minnesota: "Traitor! They yelled. Turncoat! Pussy! I felt myself blush. I couldn't tolerate it" (59). Th use of the word "blush" throws the reader back to the first short story, by pulling a common fear of both soldiers showing how the traumas of the war existed on the battlefront and at home.
ReplyDeleteJack, this is very strong. I thought it was really interesting how you tied the two short stories together, that is very creative. You talk about the traumas of the battlefront and home, what do you think is more important to the story. I feel as if just as strong a message is sent in both settings because of Ted Lavender's death and the fact that Tim O'Brien was being called a "Pussy" as he was crossing the river. People back home were so concerned with others fighting this war that they forget to really think about the soldiers! Lavender and O’Brien are as human as everyone else yet they both treated as outcasts. Looking solely on O’Brien I feel as if this is a lose lose for him because if he stays home he does what he believes in risking everything, but if he goes to war he, like he said is a coward for not doing in what he believed. Clearly this decision has huge psychological effects on O’Brien as it took him this long to open up about them.
DeleteI found that the overlying struggle in " On the Rainy River" epitomizes the line in the short story " The Things They Carried", " They were afraid of dying but they were even more afraid to show it" (19). O'Brien's struggle seems to be finding the line between being a coward and doing what is right. At the end of the short story O'Brien says that he "was a coward" because he " went to the war" (58) and "would not swim away from [his] hometown and [his] country and [his] life", that "he would not be brave" (55).To O'Brien, this was a from of submission as he would agree to fight, submission into a a machismo set of mind needed to fight a war that somehow made him a coward because at the end of the day he was not fighting for what he believed in. The line that most connected to the soldiers fear of not portraying this machismo in the first short story was when O'Brien consented to fighting the war, he " would kill and maybe die--because [he] was embarrassed not to" (57). It is this embarrassment of showing fear and not being a patriot that drives O'Brien's and the soldiers' struggle concerning the war.
ReplyDelete"On The Rainy River" tells the story of a young Tim O'Brien, an emotionally ambivalent and scared boy who had just gotten his draft letter. The root of his confliction was his strong belief that the war was unjustified and that America was fighting in a battle it did not belong. After almost fleeing the country for Canada to escape the war's calling, O'Brien decides to go to Vietnam. He says,"I was a coward. I went to the war" (58). This thought creates an oxymoronic effect and forces the reader to question what O'Brien thinks a coward is. One would think that going to the war would be the brave, honorable choice however, O'Brien allows the reader to wonder what about this war makes cowards of the men who choose to partake in it. O'Brien shifts the perspective brilliantly by building up to the suspenseful decision and then adding in this quote to evoke deep questioning from the reader.
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DeleteIn both "The Responsibility of Intellectuals" and "On the Rainy River," the authors comment on the failure of intellectuals to utilize their power in the simple act of forgetting they have any. Noam Chomsky stresses the innate duty of intellectuals to "seek the truth and to expose lies" because they already have the platform to do so. They, unlike many others, will be listened to. In "On the Rainy River," Tim O'Brien exposes himself for his own cowardice, saying "I was a coward. I went to the war" (58). While he already had the leverage to go to Canada in protest of a war without cause or a substantial goal, O'Brien decided to join the troops, afraid of the judgement he would face otherwise. Rather than devote himself to a cause, he prioritizes the security of his status among his peers. In describing his thought process, O'Brien provides context for understanding the millions of other soldiers who were in his same position. Simultaneously, however, he urges the reader to act in the opposite way. Like the wonderful Alice Walker famously said, "The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any."
ReplyDeleteThis is a wonderfully written argument with devoted analysis and insightful comparisons, Clara. The theme of power in both the short story and essay is a fruitful and compelling tie for sure, and the quotes you have pulled solidify this in a way that needs no further comparison. I fully agree with your analysis, and the only thing I would add is the scene in the short story where Tim is confront with figures from the past, present and the metaphorical and how the different symbols there relate to the concept of power. One such example would be the mention of Abraham Lincoln and how he is not only a manifestation of the pressures of patriotism but also he represents conquering a nation divided, or in this case a mind divided.
DeleteI agree, Clara. In O'Brien's case, I also think the weight of society's expectations and opinions , as well as his inability to recognize his power, prevented him from abstaining from the draft. For example, towards the beginning of the story, O'Brien writes, "I had taken a modest stand against the war...composing a few tedious, uninspired editorials for the campus newspaper...it was almost an entirely intellectual activity" (41). By using the word "uninspired," O 'Brien hints at the fact that the editorials were nothing radical, and thus tended to fit in with the status quo. Being, as O'Brien later notes, that he was a full-ride scholarship student at Harvard, O'Brien has the ability to make change and make himself heard, but essentially throws away this power with his "tedious" editorials. Although he does recognize his power in the phrase "entirely an intellectual activity: by hinting at his removal from the front lines of war, he refuses to use it, and thus merely floats along the river of society's will.
Delete“On The Rainy River” allows the reader to dive into the life of author Tim O’Brien, as he is forced to make a decision to fight a war he does not believe in or flee to Canada. Like many Americans at the time, O’Brien felt as if we were fighting a war that was not for the U.S.. This war was better off without us. While it is clear that O’Brien did not oppose all wars, there was something about the U.S. sticking there heads into this one, that conflicted him: “I told myself that in such circumstances I would’ve willingly marched off to the battle. The problem, though, was that that a draft did not let you choose your war” (42). O’Brien then makes it clear that this is not his war and that he will not fight it, resulting in the idea that the ones who fight the wars are really the cowards. He even hints at this when he calls himself a coward on page 58. Fighting for your country, which can be looked upon as glamorous is seen as cowardly while staying home is not. To further illustrate Tim O’Brien’s hatred for the Vietnam war he includes his summer at the butchery. He didn’t have to do this, but he did. All the blood and gore is used to foreshadow what happens during the war. To tie this back, O’Brien is trying to say that there is nothing glamorous about dying for something you do not believe in. The war he opposed and now fights in can ultimately lead to a horrific death.
ReplyDeleteNick this is a very deep and insightful look at the passage. I believe it is very interesting to look at O’brian’s hesitations about fighting in Vietnam because they are not unique, and applied to a lot of young men who were being drafted to fight in this war. I really like how you delve deeply into the idea of how being drafted to fight in a war can make an individual wary of becoming a part of it. However I disagree that the idea that people fighting in the war are cowards. They are just choosing to fight someone else’s battle for them because they have been chosen to do so. I think when he calls himself a coward on page 58 because despite objecting to the war he bent and went overseas anyways. His cowardice comes not from the actually fighting itself but from his betrayal of his own morals.
DeleteIn “On the Rainy River,” details Tim O'Brien's experience after finding out about the draft and debating whether he should stay and be drafted or if he should go and escape to Canada. The story opens with O’Brien saying, “All of us, I suppose, like to believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like the heroes of our youth, bravely, and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss or discredit” (39). At first reading my assumption was that he was referencing a time when at war, but he later reveals that he was talking about the decision whether or not to run away from the war. Through sharing this moment as an emergency where he didn’t act like a “hero,” instead of sharing a time from when he was at war, O’Brien highlights the equally important role, and weight, of the emotional difficulties when going to war.
ReplyDeleteFelix, I completely agree with your claim, however I would like to challenge you further into your analysis. Since O'Brien says “All of us, I suppose, like to believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like the heroes of our youth, bravely, and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss or discredit”(39), do you think that he's only saying this to take the responsibility of deaths off his shoulders? We clearly know that he thinks that "blood was being shed for uncertain reasons. [He] saw no unity of purpose, no consensus on matters of philosophy or history or law"(25). Since he is consciously aware that harming others is wrong, do you believe that he thereby claims him and his peers as "heroes" since he is trying to escape the reality of acknowledging that freewill exists? And by disregarding free will, he is again able to take off responsibility of many deaths? I think this would be an interesting and a more in depth discussion.
DeleteTim O’Brien writes, “On the Rainy River,” which tells the story of being drafted into war. O’Brien opens up fairly quickly in the short story to explain his beliefs and questionings of what a war is and what it means to be at war, which allows for he thought on the actual reasons for going to war. One statement particularly interesting that O’Brien writes is “Knowledge of, course, is always imperfect, but it seemed to me that when a nation goes out to war it must have reasonable confidence in the justice and imperative of its cause” (38-39). He clearly states that all the knowledge that humans are exposed to and believe in is not exactly unreliable but it is questionable. Thus, every human being should be able to have their own opinions and decided their own fate. However, with the decision of the nation to have a draft for war, the rights of a human are terminated, because they ultimately don’t get to decide the future of their own lives. This puts soldiers in to a situation where death is something that they must consider and realize is a possibility in the near future, when approaching a period of war. It is essential that O’Brien decides to include his opinion on the fact the he believes the nation has “confidence in the justice system and imperative of its cause,” because many times nations are highly confident in their system of defense and the expected outcome is not always the actual outcome. Which directly relates to the fact that, if they have enough confidence, then this must imply that the nations believe they are making the right decision, however the nation doesn’t think much about the individual deaths and their lives are being destroyed. Most importantly, the people fighting do not even get to input their perception of how the issue being fought should be handled.
ReplyDeleteIn, “On the Rainy River” Tim O’Brien gives the reader a unique view into the head of a young man who has just been drafted to participate in a war he protested in college and morally objects to. When drafted O’Brien tries to flee to Canada but before he does he second guesses his action and decides against it, “Right then, with the shore so close, I understood that I would not do what I should do. I would not swim away from my hometown and my country and my life. I would not be brave,” (55). Ironically this quote is O’Brien’s way of saying he will go to Vietnam. By saying this and describing it as not brave it exposes the idea that O’Brien views fighting in a war you don’t believe in to be more cowardice than running away from a war you were drafted to fight in. This is indicative of the second guessing done by soldiers of the time. In the first chapter the reader sees how the soldiers in Vietnam do not really understand why they are there so they distract themselves from their reality to keep themselves from realizing they are fighting a pointless war.
ReplyDeleteIn “On the Rainy River,” Tim O'Brien comes off as a hypocrite and a selfish individual based off of his perception of morality. While O'Brien says "I was drafted to fight a war I hated. I was twenty-one years old. Young, yes, and politically naive, but even so the American war in Vietnam seemed to me wrong. Certain blood was being shed for uncertain reasons. I saw no unity of purpose, no consensus on matters of philosophy or history or law"(25). Clearly, O'Brien believes that killing is against the will of the human nature, therefore being immoral philosophically. On the other hand, when he talks about himself, he says "I was too good for this war. Too smart, too compassionate, too everything. It couldn't happen. I was above it"(26). Since on one hand Tim thinks war is immoral, he does however distinguish himself as special, therefore too good for the war. Also, he is suggesting that there are people who are not good enough to be outside of the war, since he is. Since his message can be interpreted this way, it's clear that he is a hypocrite because he believes it is immoral to kill, while he justifies morally the thought of people being killed in place of him. On the other hand, he is also escaping reality because he mentions that he hated the war and he mentions his age to prove his innocence. However, he is not innocent because he is selfish and a hypocrite by his words on morality. Therefore by suggesting he is innocent and shouldn't be blamed, he subconsciously tries to believe that free will does not exist for him in war, thus taking the responsibility of deaths off of his shoulders.
ReplyDeleteIn “On the Rainy River” I was interested in Tim’s struggle of whether or not to go to war since his decision was heavily based on his fear of judgment from others. When Tim was on the boat with Elroy, he realizes that he couldn’t take action against his situation by jumping out of the boat because of everyone who was watching him: “All those eyes on me- the town, the whole universe – and I couldn’t risk the embarrassment. It was as if there was an audience to my life…I couldn’t endure the mockery, or the disgrace, or the patriotic ridicule” (59). Tim really cares about how those around him will judge him based on his actions and really fears the possibility of being rejected by everyone if decides to run away. The pressure to ultimately make the decision he feels the rest of the universe wants him to make—join the war—is high and I find it interesting that this is exactly what finally causes him to make his decision. His submission to the war is based on his fear of what others may think of him and the embarrassment he may endure by “cowering” away. It shows how we at times hold the judgement of others, in certain situations, higher than our own judgement of the situation and, in the end, the pressure of conforming to what others think could prove too strong and cause us to completely disregard how we may feel.
ReplyDeleteLesley, I completely agree with your claim. This is exactly why I think O’Brien called himself a coward for going to war at the end of the short story. He’s too concern about what those around him might say that, “in [his] head [he] could hear people screaming at [him]. Traitor! They yelled. Turncoat! Pussy!” (57). Him worrying so much about what everyone think not only causes him to choose to do something he didn’t want to but it's also the reason why it's so hard for him to tell this story even after many years because it reveal something that could make everyone think of him as a coward. I also liked how you connect O’Brien’s situation to situations we often go through. I definitely agree that we constantly hold the judgements of other higher than our own judgement.
DeleteI found it interesting how O'Brien thinks that going to the war makes him a coward You would think that going to the war would make one brave and honorable. After reading "On The Rainy River" I thought about what he probably meant by that. I thought about the fact that he made it very clear that he didn’t want to go to war for reasons like he felt he “Was too good for this war”, and overall he felt that a war in Vietnam seemed wrong (39). O’Brien ends the short story by saying, “I was a coward. I went to the war” (58) Although he made it clear he didn't want to go to war he still ends up going ultimately making him a coward for not staying firm to what he actually wanted. Moreover, It goes back to the idea of machismo. He went to war because he didn’t want people to see him as a coward however, the fact that he did go to war considering he didn’t want to make him a coward, not to the people but definitely to himself.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Cristal, in the beginning of the chapter, he looks at himself like a hero and this story like a great and heroic event. “Certainty that was my conviction back in the summer of 1968. Tim O’Brien: a secret hero. The Lone Ranger… Courage, I seemed to think comes to us in finite quantities, like an inheritance, and by being frugal and stashing it away and letting it earn interest, we steadily increase our moral capital in preparation for that day when the account must be drawn down.”(37-38) This explains how Tim O’Brien claims to have many heroic actions and secrets hidden away and only wants us the audience/readers to have the desires to find out what occurred during those events but him not revealing them. Later on during the chapter the courageous tone changed to a sad and grieving tone, as Tim O’Brien looks at the reality of the many situations he had encountered.
DeleteI agree with you Cristal and i love the way you connected it back to machismo in that social expectations pressured young men into valuing the county more than themselves. The idea of heroism is one very important to this chapter because here he demonstrate the confusion and the layer of what a hero is. We tend to like to think we will be brave in the face of danger but in this chapter we see how detrimental it actually is. What it means to be a man-- also connecting this back to Oscar-- is having no emotion and I feel this apathy for men shows the social standards men are suppose to meet. This war draft uncovered the vulnerability within men and put them in the test for being a true man. We also have to consider the battle they have with themselves, whether to be a coward in the eyes of others or in their own eyes, which is very important that he tackles this because it shows the fear that is not shown clearly in the first chapter, "The Things They Carried."
DeleteIn his story "On the Rainy River," Tim O'Brien juxtaposes society's perceptions of what cowardice consists of with O'Brien's own notions about cowardice in order to illustrate how morality is warped by American culture. Right at the start of the story, O'Brien writes, "[a]ll of us...like to believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like the heroes of our youth, bravely and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss" (39). By choosing to use the phrase "like to believe" instead of simply "believe," O'Brien highlights how society places a favorable light on the classic "hero" archetype, and thus grants individuals the difficult task of living up to this archetype. No matter how hard one may try to become a hero, it will ultimately be unattainable. In his own perceptions of cowardice, however, O'Brien turns the tables. He writes, "I would go to the war--I would kill and maybe die--because I was embarrassed not to...I was a coward. I went to war" (60-61). Society's classic reaction of O'Brien's choice to go to war would be to label him brave--a hero--when in actuality, he is merely going ti war out of cowardice. O'Brien's fear of being called weak is what ultimately results in his choice to go to war, and thus he answers his draft out of fear, not honor. By juxtaposing the classic "war hero" perception with that of the main character's, O'Brien highlights the problems within a societal mindset: it, essentially, warps the moral compass.
ReplyDeleteIn the story “On The Rainy River” by Tim O'Brien, I found it ironic how Tim views himself based on his job. He thinks that he's “too smart, too compassionate, too everything” to be drafted into the war (41). After he finds out about this, the author jumps to his job in a meatpacking factory. I thought it was interesting how he works for “eight hours a day...on a quarter mile assembly line” with many other workers, that do the same job as him and most likely come from a similar background (42) . To me this illustrated how everyone else that didn't have a choice but to fight in the war must have felt similar to Tim. Because the war seemed so distant and separated from their lives, it would make sense that no one would expect to be drafted. They only had to think about the war when they knew they'd have to join it.
ReplyDeleteVery well said Rene, it did intrigue me at first as to how fighting a war would account as an act of cowardice instead of bravery or something that brings honor. I am reminded of how O' Brien was completely against the war and was in fact, scared. He didn't want to lose his life. He felt war was not a place for well read persons like him. I feel he calls himself a coward for going to the war because he didn't stick to his believes and acted against what his heart felt was right. He felt that if he didn't go for the war, people would consider him to be coward. Although he realizes after the war that he would have been braver -- not for other people but for his own self-- had he stood by his own beliefs and not succumb to what people feel about his actions.
ReplyDeleteThe short story, “On the Rainy River” gives us the perspective of Tim, a young intellectual man who is drafted but is against the war. The story begins with Tim O'Brien telling us that he hasn’t been shared this story with his family because, “to go into it, I’ve always thought, would only cause embarrassment for all of us” (37). Knowing that Tim has fought in the Vietnam War, I assumed that his embarrassment would be his attempt to escape the draft. Although this is what he tries to do, his embarrassment is only in his failure to go through with it. Tim then says that he sees the men who go to war as “cowards” because they were too embarrassed not to fight. This juxtaposes the views of the soldiers from the story, “The Things they Carried” because their definition of cowards were, “guys who had found release by shooting off their own toes or fingers. Pussies, they’d say” (21). These opposing views lead to Tim's break down in the pig factory because there is opposition of the War from Americans yet there is still a pressure to fight for national pride.
ReplyDeleteWell said Az. I find your point on Tim considering himself as a coward as very interesting. I agree that he feels that the embarrassment he feels revolves around on his failure to escape to Canada. I think that Tim following these expectations to fight for national pride, is ultimately is what he is embarrassed about. He considers himself “a coward” and says that “it was not a happy ending” because of his regret of going to war (61). I agree on your point that this can be connected back to “The Things they Carried” since many of the soldiers at war seem to have this feeling of regret as well. I think that his fear of detaching himself from his old life and emotions, are well reflected in Lieutenant Cross. The part where he envisions a public watching him choose his decision to go to Canada or go to war reflects this pressure in fighting for national pride.
DeleteThe story of Tim O'brien before being drafted to war in "On the Rainy River" acknowledges the social expectations of men servicing our country despite their approval or feelings on the matter. This chapter is meant to demonstrate the confusion of what young drafted experienced when the demands of the country and community conflicted with their fear. Something I found interesting was the fact of shame forced on the men if they did not show courage. Men were suppose to put their feelings aside-- without processing the horrors-- just simply act. Almost like machines men are to fight with the pressure of society cracking down on them creating an inferiority complex within them if they do not go: "He would kill and maybe die--because [he] was embarrassed not to" (57). O’Brien is trapped by his own morals, if he goes to war he would be disappointing himself and if he does not go he will be looked down upon by his family and community. His journey to the Canadian border and meeting Elroy compels him into action for the realization of runaway and not making a decision by stepping other grounds IS a huge decision.
ReplyDeleteDaniel, I love the fact that you contrast O’Brien’s morals and desires with the desires of those around him. It is kind of similar to the cultural expectations that we saw Oscar struggling with in Junot Diaz’s novel. I also like how you acknowledge Elroy’s playing a role in O’Brien’s decision to go to war and I completely agree. Perhaps this conflict of Tim’s morals and his family’s expectations can relate back to the “weight” of these intangible feelings. You say that O’Brien is “trapped by his own morals” and I feel like that statement is particularly evident and solidified when O’Brien describes the feelings he has after receiving his letter. While describing how he feels at work, he says, “The emotions went from outrage to terror to bewilderment to guilt to sorrow and then back again to outrage. I felt a sickness inside me. Real disease” (43). He also says, “I felt something break inside my chest. I don’t know what it was. Ill never know. But it was real” (44). These overwhelming feelings and emotions are so conflicting that they take a physical toll on O’Brien and this is what causes him to feel literally “trapped” by the weight of it all.
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DeleteDaniel, I agree totally! I wrote about a similar subject. In the beginning of the story, O'Brian' highlights the importance of being a hero and saving the day oppose to saving individual dreams. "We all, I suppose, believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like heroes in our youth, bravely and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss or discredit" (39). He is torn between his selfishness in rejecting change and doing what the majority declares is right for the country. His fear of this decision consumes him and eats away at his self conscious because of the pressure put on young men. I definitely agree that he feels "trapped" by the responsibility. Also I feel like he genuinely would want to fight worth fighting for, with a cause instead of one he does not understand. He needs a reason to fight, something more than because it's what he is expected to do. The war seemed illogical and foreign to O'Brien and this perpetuates his feeling of uncertainty which wrecked his mind.
DeleteDaniel, I agree with your connection to social expectations of men, because at this time not only was it a social expectation of men to go to war, it was a decision where they had no choice. Forcing the men to fight a war that many, especially the narrator, did not want to take part of, a war that had no “purpose” or “certainty” (38) to them either. As wars are something expected of men to fight, it leaves men in a difficult condition, where they are unable to express their emotions over it. I especially like your idea that feelings had to be put aside to allow for actions, and that personally OBrien was trapped by his own morals. We can see this in the beginning of the chapter where OBrien says that speaking about his experiences to his family “would only cause embarrassment” (37). Not only are men drafted with no choice but they are not allowed an outlet to vent to, in fear of seeming less of a man.
DeleteIn the story "On The Rainy River" the author Tim O' Brien, starts off by saying "Even now, I'll admit, the story makes me squirm. For more than twenty years I've had to live with it, feeling the shame, trying to push it away". The reader tends to believe, in the beginning, that O' Brien is ashamed of himself and this part of his life as he almost tried to runaway from the war, fleeing to Canada. It is only in the end that the reader realizes that he is actually ashamed because he goes to the war because of what people would think about him. Whenever he travels back to this phase of his life he is filled with remorse as he went to the war out of shame. "All the eyes on me—the town, the whole universe—and I couldn't risk the embarrassment. I felt myself blush. I couldn't tolerate it." He didn't want to put his reputation on line by not going to the war but in the end not siding with his heart soils his image in his own eyes.
ReplyDeleteIn the short story “On the Rainy River,” Tim O’Brien allows the reader to experience the mindset of a young ordinary man who had been drafted into war. After receiving the letter, Tim decides that his only two options would to accept the result of the draft or flee to Canada. O’Brien ultimately struggles in deciding whether his own personal opinion is more important than his reputation as an American citizen: “All those eyes on me—the town, the whole universe—and I couldn’t risk the embarrassment. It was as if there were an audience to my life…I could hear people screaming at me. ‘Traitor!’ They yelled. Turncoat! Pussy!” (59). O’Brian alludes to the pressure of patriotism, and the result of living up to these patriotic ideals. He finds it unfair that he must be subjected to war, despite him hating the entire motives behind the war he was drafted into. His mixed emotions can be compared to the same emotions the Lieutenant Cross felt during the war. Both O’Brien and Cross, reflect this desire to keep hold of their reality before war, causing O’Brien to admit that he “was a coward” because he chose to go to war (61).
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with your argument Clarence and like how you specify the "only two options" Tim had. I like how you connected this story to "The Things they Carried" and Lieutenant Cross. I also really like your evidence and the pressure of patriotism, I would also add how Tim doesn't even open up to his family but instead runs away because it further demonstrates his opposition to the war and his fear of death. I also think that when talking of the connection of Tim and Cross, you should include their regrets (not going to Canada and letting Ted Lavender die) and how it affects them in similar ways. I think that the comparisons of Tim and Cross can go further because both have a hope that they use to escape war (Martha and Canada) but for both they are unreachable/unattainable. Overall, I like the points you address and your connections of the characters from the two readings.
DeleteIn “On the Rainy River”, I was particularly interested in how O’Brien makes one small reference to things that Elroy carries with him, yet how significantly these objects that he carries really sums up his personality. When describing these objects, O’Brien says, “In one hand, I remember, he carried a green apple, a small paring knife in the other” (46). Later on, when trying to sum up and emphasize Elroy’s intellectuality, O’Brien says, “The man was sharp—he didn’t miss much” (47). The first object that O’Brien brings to the reader’s attention is the knife, and this knife represents his knowledge and “sharpness”. Although Tim doesn’t tell Elroy anything about the situation he is in, Elroy knows and it is implied that this is because he is sharp as a knife. He can understand a situation without a word and this object that he carries perfectly represents this. The second object, an apple, could perhaps be correlated with a teacher figure, as teachers are commonly associated with apples. Although Tim doesn’t take Elroy’s sort of encouragement to get on with this new life that he has planned, Tim refers to Elroy as, “the hero” of his life, and the one who “saved” him (45 & 46). Elroy’s actions played a significant role in influencing Tim’s actions-- his silence, their activities together—and as a teacher helps to lead their students, Elroy ultimately plays a role in leading Tim to making this major decision to go to war, whether it be a good decision, or a bad one.
ReplyDeleteI find interesting what Chomsky says near the end of the article, almost as an aside: "it makes little difference to us what form of government a country has so long as it remains an 'open society'...that is, a society that remains open to American economic penetration or political control." Considering the fact that he says intellectuals have a responsibility to seek the truth, I find it interesting that no one questions this in particular. Chomsky quotes Henry Kissinger to say that American politicians' motives seem to be above scrutiny in general, and that has changed to some extent, but for the most part Americans do not really question why we intervene some places but not others. We speculate briefly, but then the speculation almost invariably turns into the regular inane political arguments and insults we are constantly inundated with. On the other hand, while I would argue that we should do so more, we are questioning the motives of our elected officials, even nonintellectuals.
ReplyDeleteWhat I found interesting in “On the Rainy River” was O’Brien’s very own self evaluation which questioned his moral compass which may have threatened his machismo. In his town he is expected by everyone including his family to accept the draft and not run away because it is seemed as “cowardly” but that decision and reasoning is not totally black and white. Crying is considered as weakness: “It's not just the embarrassment of tears. Thats part of it no doubt, but what emabarasses me much more, and always will, is the paralysis that took my heart. A moral freeze: I couldn't decide, I couldn't act, I couldn't comport myself with even a pretense of modest human dignity” (57). The draft has triggered him to question his identity and what he believes in and what is right.He barely understands who he is and he cannot fathom a transition from a simple life to possibly losing that very same life on the battlefield. He also questions his hypothetical role in the war and the wars purpose, of which he cannot answer. War is a mental fight as well as a physical one because it makes the soldiers question their humanity and priorities. “My whole life seemed to spill out onto the river,swirling away from me, everything I had ever been or ever wanted to be” (58) The river metaphorically stands for the crossroad he's conflicted in and forced to make a bold choice or the one seen as the “bolder” choice, being ready and accepting the draft. Also his drowning represents how the war is swallowing him whole emptying him of his dreams of a normal life and condemning him to a miserable one: the life of a soldier.
ReplyDeleteTim O’Brien is confident and proud about his service during the earlier part of this chapter but then explains his hate and sadness for being drafted to the army. “The draft notice arrived on June 17, 1968. It was a humid afternoon, I remember, cloudy and very quiet, and I’d just come in from a round of golf. My mother and father were having lunch out in the kitchen. I remember opening up the letter, scanning the first few lines, feeling the blood go thick behind my eyes. I remember a sound in my head. It wasn’t thinking, just a silent howl. A million things all at once – I was too good for this war. Too smart, too compassionate, too everything. It couldn’t happen. I was above it.” (39) Tim O’Brien think he is too smart and too above to go to war, but I believed we talked about it in class that if he was in college, he wouldn’t be drafted to the war.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Do you think Tim O’Brien regrets having been drafted to the army?
Its interesting that you touched upon his thinking: "Am I too good to go to war"?. In response to that thinking, I believe everyone is too good to die. Going to war can be hard on each individual drafted, despite their belief or level of confidence entering the war. Upon finding out, this character appears to be wondering "why me? Ive done nothing wrong, Im smart, Im nice..". Yet bad things happen to good people. What seperates people in these moments is how they handle the obstacles that confront them. However, the narrator also mentions why he must fight in a war that he does not support; why not send someone who is more willing to fight than I? This is an interesting comment by him, and it does make me wonder if it should be okay to inflict a draft if theres a significant amount of the population who dont support the war. If a huge portion of the country dont support the war then there shouldnt be a draft.
DeleteIn Tim Obrien's chapter "On The Rainy River", the author explores the difference between courage and cowardice. For instance, the narrator- upon hearing that he is drafted and headed to war- decides to drive away from his fate: "I drove north...and all I remember is velocity and the feel of steering wheel in my hands. I was riding on adrenaline...I had no plan. Just hit the border at high speed and crash through and keep running" (45). In order to run away, the character abandons his family, leaves behind the town hes only know, his full ride to Harvard, and his job. Some could argue that by leaving behind everything familiar to you takes a certain amount of courage. However, the narrator ran away to flee the mandatory draft he's been selected by. By avoiding his draft to the war, he is considered a coward by others. On the other hand, he flees from the war partly because he does not believe in the war; sticking to one's beliefs take courage. Yet, a fear of what other people think of him also drive his decisions- a form of cowardice. Hence, is the narrators choice to run away make him a coward or courageous?
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning of the chapter On the Rainy River, the narrator gives us a view of the war that is many times only experienced by the soldiers; a story that even the narrator says “[he has] never told before” (37). The fact that this story is finally being told to an audience is almost like a confession, similar to how Noam Chomsky argues that “it is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak truth and to expose lies” (Chomsky 1). This brings up the interesting view of the reality of war including the morality of it. Both O’Brien and Chomsky question the credibility of war, and whether the end goal is worth the pain of the fight: “Certain blood was being shed for uncertain reasons” (38), this reason unknown to the young soldier who was forced to fight, but known by Chomsky to be ensuring that countries “remain open to American economic penetration or political control” (Chomsky 3). The motives of a war are something that remain unknown to all. While soldiers may view glimpses of the reality of the war through the atrocities they witness and experience, they never really know the meaning. The people back at home remain even more blind to the truth as their government tells them nothing and neither do the soldiers.
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